@ Ravi Gowande,

The  points  you have  made  have  a  utopian  tinge and  though  they  have  lot  of  correct ideas but  will  never  be  accepted  by  the  'small' men who  control Indian  racing...

Before  Kapildev  team's win, Indian  players some  of  them  very  good; were inflicted  with  inferiority  complex. But  after this  win that  too on  foreign land made  them  realise  that ' they  can also  do  it' and  that  was  the  begining  of the uprise  of  Indian  cricket...

Indian  horse  racing  also  suffers  fom  the  similar  complex. But  while  we  can hire  the  best  trainer  for  cricket we  don't  have  similar facility  in  racing which  is  flooded  with  inferior  professionals and inferior  breed of  thoroughbreds. We  import  B grade  stallions because  we  can't  pay for  grade  one  stallions and at  the  same  time  import rejected  or  past  their  prime broodmares, who  are  normally  8 to  10 years  old  when  they  land  up  in  India...

Every  year  w  produce 1200 to  1400 live foals out  of  which  800 to  1000 do run  on  Indian  tracks. In  last  30  years  out  of  25,000 able  to  race  thoroughbreds we  have  produced  only  single  digit  winners in  a  group 1 or 2  or  3 races in US, Japan and  few  south  east  Asian ( no  better than India, rather  much  lower than India)  countries...

I've  full sympathy  for  your  vision  but it  is  of  no  use, because  this type  of  vision  is  required  by  Indian  breeders and importers  of stallions and  mares and  not  by  us...

Due respect to Chanakya, I never said Indian horses are gointg to win Epsom derby or any other Group Race. My point is we have quality of horses that can compete in International stage. initially if not the Group races Class 2-3 races can be won easily. Owners point of view Stakes Money in Hong kong and Japan is worth the money spent on travelling and quarentine expenses.Unless you try you are not going to get the fruits.

Remember  June 1983 Cricket World Cup won by Kapil Deo team at 100 to 1 odds. Beating the Mighty West Indians. That has been a turning point in the Indian cricket. Had anyone imagine such a thing before the 1983 world cup?

Ravi Gowande

Pedigreestar      

In Epsom Derby, from 2000 to 2019 no winner  could run  faster  than 2m 31seconds. Galileo ran this  Derby in  2m 31+ seconds in 2000...

Does  it  mean Indian   winners over  2400m  can  beat these Epsom  Derby  winners?

Never...

Hi Santosh, 

I never meant that jockeys can't be good trainer. Rather I personally feel they can be the best trainers if they have the skill to train. My point was there are trainers who have never been jockeys or haven't learned training horses in a well defined way. And that's the reason they don't perform. And big owners don't give horses to such trainers anyways there are small owners who don't have an option of performing trainers and they suffer. Cause reputed trainers won't train for a small time owner even if they do the horse will be given last chance to participate and try in big races even if it has merit. If you see the records of classic races ran in India how many small owners have won? Was none of thier horses ever capable. But you would see same names in list again and again. Cause you can't disappoint a owner who buys 50 horses every year for someone who is gonna buy once in lifetime. 

Hi Ravi, 

I completely agree that to evolve an industry to it's optimum level you need competition. Timings can't decide a permanent class of horse as you said rightly it one of factors which is again dependent on many factors. Cause if only timing are to be considered there are horses which have clocked 1.34 in mysore over a mile. They should be one of the best milers in the world. 

Talking about horses like Mystical,Elusive Pimpernel, Be Safe, Quasar or some greats like Exhilaration, Adler, Squandered, Enterprising or Saddle Up are not born every day. And Mystical did win 2 races in Dubai, Saddle Up won abroad, also I think Polar Falcon and Smart Chieftain did race abroad. But similarly we saw Desert God and Seargent At Arms who can be called one of the all time greats of Indian racing struggled abroad. I appreciate the willingness of thier owners to participate there. Winning Lossing is different thing. But from 10 or 12 horses in entire racing history we can't be called fit to compete abroad. Except these super special horses hardly any of our horses even peak thier form and fitness to that level. We are no where close to thier basic facilities for horses and professionals as well. Half of the time the clubs in our country are busy with legal battles cause of sheer ignorance. And stakes we have for winners is very low. We need to first focus on marketing the sport, gathering more finance through sponsors, raise the stakes also control price of horses, investing more on necessary infrastructure for racing than having parties, get the government allinged with better tax policy. 

Then we can think of next level. No doubt you have a beautiful vision for future of this sport and I appreciate it to fullest. Unfortunately people who are in role and capacity to do it are simply not interested in any club. Imagine Delhi Racecourse and races conducted there. A European racing professional will laugh looking them. 

I am sorry to make it lengthy but remembered a funny incident. I and a jockey were at wedding of friend. There were people in band playing some instruments. The jockey said to me they and us are quite similar right? I first dint understand and asked how? He said see all have touched that instrument to thier lips but are all blowing air or are some of them simply doing a show. Even we do that na. In a race hardly 4 or 5 are actually intrested. Baki ke toh yuhi run dete rehte hai. Though it made me smile somewhere I saw a reality in it. Just a joke that actually happened. 

Saurabh,

Even in the U K it's the Jockey turned trainer who have become Successful Trainers. Dont you think a jockey knows the Horse best and the most suitable person to train Horses since he has been around horses long enough.

How they are able to solicit Owners is a different skill altogether,But dont under estimate the skills of a Jockey to become a Trainer.

Regards

Saurabh@

Regarding quality of Indian  horsesI have two points.

In 1995 Elusive Pimperneil Won in a record time of 2.30.7 beating approx 21-22 horses. He was 19 th at Bend position but still won the Derby.

Mark Gallaghar an Irish jockey riding then in India had publicly commented that EP can win Group race in Europe, But to my knoweldge was not sent abroad at all.

Velvet Rope won derby in 2.29.74 in 2006

Antonious won  derby in 2.28.58 in 2009 first 7 horses crossed the finish line had broken earlier record.

Be safe won the derby in 2.27.71 in 2015.

Adjudicate in Mysore won Invitation 2.26.97 in 2020 ,

as on date 2400 Mtrs Course Record in Hong Kong  Sha Tin is 2.26.10  in Class 1 Race. I do agree time is a relative factor and depends on track conditions and plenty of variables.But see the trend the improvement is happening.

Second Razeen which was imported in 1991 in India is by Legendary Stallion Northern Dancer with high profile ancestors in the pedigree has produced plenty of classic winners. His daughers who are also well performed are being mated with stallions imported in India from time to time. In last 15 years plenty of quality broodmares, stallions have been imported in India which has overall increased the gene pool in India. I do agree plenty of substandard imports have happened but that is part of game. Regarding price of foal and performance are two diffferent things Highest priced auctioned horse 16.3 Million Dollors flopped and See Sprint Star  with average pedigree as per conventional trends ,Colts Trial winner Earned in excess of 1.34 Crores for owners. Competition is the need of hour which will make our trainers, breeders, jockeys more professional.

Ravi Gowande

Pedigreestar  

I agree with most of the points you mentioned Raviji. But I differ on one thing you wrote. Do you really believe we have horses who have quality and class to compete abroad or even with horses from abroad? Every reputedly big trainer in India has atleast 10 horses that are very costly on thier breeding lines and confirmation. How many of these 10 really reach a level that's expected? The way people become trainers in India is that a suitable method? Either ex-jockeys turn trainers or others become through some big reference. As a result there are many trainers who end up winning at the most a race or two in entire year. You want higher middle class people to invest in a horse... On basis of what? Will big trainers who perform well train thier horses? Or will they have to cope up with trainers who take an year or more only to understand a suitable distance,suitable equipment and perfect feed for thier horses? How many of small owners have survived in the game for years? How many syndicates have sustained over the years? 

So first we need to get basics right in Indian Racing industry. They need to have a professional academic courses for becoming trainers like they have in UK. There needs to scientific knowledge given to aspirants there about breeding, feeding anatomy of horses. At the moment we have a system where first of all no one keeps you as an assistant until you have a reference. If the one who refered you doesn't give you horses the assistant would stay assistant all his life. There would be someone who has no capabilities but would end up as a trainer as he is son or relative of trainer or owner. We need to correct these practices first. 

Indian racing has more points in flaws than excellence. We need to get those basics corrected. Then we can think of abroad racing.. Most of our horses won't stay with pace till bend abroad forget finishing the race on board. 

Your thoughts are genuinely nice but there are people administrating this game who are only interested in today of it.. Wish they could have sometimes given a thought for future of this game it would have been in far better state.. Every year they wouldn't have wasted their time in legal fights with government bodies. 

Sir, exactly that was my opinion on sale of horses. there should be accountability on every horse sold be it at farm or at auction.

Of late I thought why did government imposed 28% on horse racing? The problem lies in breeders, clubs . When they show so much turn over with less sale of horses govt knew there is something fishy and they are invading tax. If that was not the case then why clubs, breeders, didn't approach govt when they had given opportunity to appeal as some of them did who were in 28% slab and brought down. Because thief can't ask for justice in police station.. if everything was crystal clear on papers and in accounts I guarantee clubs would have lockdown the course on the imposition of the GST slab and breeders would be supporting them after all they all share our hard earned money... There is always a two sides of coin...

IIMBLUE@

don't complicate things. Indian stallaions, mares future of breeding.or timing in Mysore. Timining is one of the pointers of quality of race horse. Check the course records on various turf clubs in India. Most of them are in last 5-6 years. If I remember properly one course record broken in Bangalore on staurday was broken within 24 hours on Sunday racing.    

My Point is simple . Is Indian Thoroughbred has the potential to win abroad?.  

Yes Potential is present. Indian breeders/turf clubs are still living in Before Nov 2016 era. It was a cash economy, question of exports was out of question. second we are still not exposed to competition. Once we are exposed to international competition our breeds will improve still more for sure. 

Ravi Gowande

Pedigreestar

Ravi Gowande sir,  

You are the best person to answer this question. If breeders want to promote Indian bred horses,  why they are not encouraging Indian Stallions? 

  A filley may have some future in India. But the Colts are doomed form the start. Gelding is the norm here,  not exception. 

Even if a horse performs exceptionally well,  he hardly gets an opportunity to perform well as a Stallion. Again the norm is -- give an Indian Stallion a bad name and discredit him. An Indian Stallion should get quality mares and in good numbers too. Only leading breeders have the ability to do it but then they have vested interest of promoting the " myth " of got abroad stallion. For  example what encouragement unbeaten Exhileration got! 

Sir Bruce could not even get a proper home ,yet he produced Mac Bruce who won Pune Derby and performed creditably in other classics. 

Most of the foreign stallions are mediocre performers / rejects from the West. With that base,  how you can compete internationally,  is beyond me. 

We should not read too much in timings. In Mysore,  even lower class horses cut superior timings. 

Hi Ravisaheb

Good thoughts

Been back to India after being based abroad for quite a no of years

Was part when this dite started.

My suggestiona

1. Either go go for a single authority like BHA or France Galop or privatise the racecourses governed by a Ministry like in the US.

2. Make horse racing clean by keeping stewards who understand the sport n the technicslities rather than fools like BTC stewards who make a mockery

3. Various bodies like JAI n Trainers associations need to be regulated n working in a proper manner.

4. So many jockey licences issued, regulate the same so that we have jockeys rather than riding boys.

5. All trainers should be certified enough to bd trainers, now most are sons or relatives of XYX.

6. Root out the gamblers. This is a royal game.

7. Root out the benami bookmakers. If possiblr have a tote system like Japan

8. The paying public are not servants to be treated so. At many courses there is no standing, sitting area where thr few privileged get thr vantage positions.

9. Online betting is the need of the hour 

10 Allow major players like bey365,betway, ladbroke, william hill in the market which will tackle lkke thr cutters.

11. Start racing without spectators n online betting which will at least punters at home.

Cheers

COOL BOY

IIMBLUE@ 

Performance of horse depends on multiple factors, On face of it performance of Desert God is not that good but in reality  it is much better. I had an interaction with a Private Trainer of leading Owner in the world. In his opinion Desert God performed pretty well despite all the negative factors prevalent. 

Western loby in Gulf is very strong. If Indian horses start perfoming in the gulf then it is going to affect them commercially very hard. It is going to be very difficult to race in gulf initially for us.

Regarding Pedigree vise you need to judge the quality of horses based on time. Just see the trends of course records broken in India at various centers. Not only the top stud farms but many times horses from small farms have broken course records. 2009 Derby when Set alight lost the race, first 7 horses which had crossed the line had broken the earlier course record. Our horses are insulated from competition, I have been researching pedigree of horses since 1995. Indian as well as Global. Indian breeders have a unique opportunity to encash this now.in Next 3-4 years my statement will be validated if Indian horses compete in the international level.

Ravi Gowande

Pedigreestar

Ravi Gowende is exactly correct. Clubs must encourage Rich ppls to buy Horses. Shd allow syndicate of owners from all walk of life. It will reduce burden of maintaining a Race Horse. All Race Clubs must understand that ppls anywhere in World interested for quick Money. Share markets, IPL every year see lot of money pour in. There are big losses also to ppls. But still it's not decreasing interest.  I witness lot of youngsters entering Race courses in Chennai and Pune. They also play brilliantely. Race clubs shd attract more ppls to invest in racing. Loss or gain would be equally distributed if heavy bettings are happen. Must get Online betting at the earliest. It's right time plan for future of Racing in India. Form a committee and chalk out plan.

@Ravi gowande sir,  

These are Clubs which have been made by group of people,  their fiefdoms. Suddenly,  you want them to be run like Companies. Even Indian Film Industry which much bigger in size could not get in to any disciplined style of functioning. 

Take it from me. Breeders and Owners like to sell and buy the horses privately. This is the reason why Clubs could not survive as breeders. ( BTC unable to run the Kunigal Stud had to return it to the government in the nineties  )

It is also surprising to me that how you can claim that Adjudicate has shown the mettle of Indian Horses. The performance of Desert God in India and abroad mirrors the quality of Indian Breeding. 

If the breeders were serious there would have been more horses belonging to Class one and two,  in training. Unfortunately,  most horses run in Class four and five. I suspect that the trainers and Clubs like it this way!. Perhaps more races in lower classes mean more gambles !!

2020 will affect the breeders the most!!!