On the eve of 75th Edition of Indian Derby - on coming Sunday, it is interesting to recall the outstanding effort of some of the great stud farms, owners, trainers and jockeys who carved their names in the Indian horse racing history.
Stud Farm entries in this years Derby and their previous WINS in the last 74 Indian Derbies (Read: Stud Farm, No.of wins (Present Runner)
Usha Stud 13 (MATHAIYUS)
Poonwalla Stud 9 (BOLD MARCH & HIGHLAND BREZE)
Manjri Stud 9 (LUCAS)
Yeravada Stud 8 (None)
Kunigal Stud 4 (SALAZAAR)
Nanoli Stud 3 (SERJEANT AT ARMS)
Dashmesh 3 (HALL OF FAMER)
T.C. Westmeath Stud, Canada – 0 (None) (SUPREME GENERAL)
Jai Govind Stud– 0 (None) (VULCAN)
Coolmore Stud, Ireland – 0 (None) (MRS. PATMORE)
Lanwandes Stud (GB) – 0 (None) (SILVER BEAUTY)
Ballylinch Stud (Ire) – 0 (None) (TEMERITY)
Quest Royal Stud North (NY) - 0 (None) (WINTER RENAISSANCE)
Trainers and Jockeys in previous Derbies:
Pesi Shroff has entered 3 horses in this years Derby. He is always a TRICKSTER in Classic and this time MATHAIYUS is running in Derby after a well enacted drama in its last run. TEMERITY’s sire Intense Focus gets only 5000 Euros as Stud Fees. MRS. PATMORE’s sire gets 17500 Euros. Look how Pesi played his trick to gift the Oaks to the Ruias. Neeraj followed Mrs. Patmore all thru till the last two furlong and put pressure on Mrs.Patmore after that. This is called tactics employed on certain races. MRS.PATMORE’s sire HOLY ROMAN EMPEROR is commanding Stud Fee of 17500 Euros from which you can understand TEMERITY’s owner was gifted the Indian Oaks on a Platter. MRS. PATMORE’s owners and trainer has won the Indian Derby in 2010 with Jacqueline. Don’t forget MRS. PATMORE is the great Cook in DOWNTON ABBEY TV Show Series. When we are talking about cooking, what kichchdi these owners and trainers are cooking behind the scenes no one knows. Pesi has entered three horses in the Derby when he knows well that SERJEANT AT ARMS trained by SS Attaollahi is the main contender for this year’s edition, owned by Dhunjibhoys. Surprisingly MRS PATMORE & GERMANICUS are Co-owned by Dhunjibhoys with Vijay Shirkes. Is it for getting for good Dhunjibhoy/Shirke horses…?
It is to be noted that out of 14 trainers, only 4 had won Indian Derbies, they are Pesi (1 as a trainer and 8 as Rider), Malesh Narredu (1 as trainer and 1 as Rider), Imtiaz Sait (1), S.Padmanabhan (2), rest of them still to win this coveted classic.
Remember, Sandesh and Trevor both not yet won the Indian Derby.
I will GIVE FIRST THREE SLOTS TO SHIRKE/DHUNJIBHOY TEAM:
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MRS. PATMORE Vs. SERJEANT AT ARMS vS. GERMENICUS (Anyways)
24 Replies
Winning_punter said ...
04-Feb-2017
Gentlemen, you all are forgetting one horse which is LUCAS, watch out.
Svp said ...
03-Feb-2017
@ Monty Gaikwad
Mercyman has merely repeated what ITR said in his post of 3/2/2117. Give credit where it is dues.
Monty Gaikwad said ...
03-Feb-2017
@mercyman
I Appriciate your study with perfect facts and figures and your brilliant answer to over confident and half studied member
@aditya
As mercyman said no one is perfect just enjoy the game bro itz derby weekend
Cheers
Mercyman said ...
03-Feb-2017
@aditya
Allow me Correct u mate, Stud fees of Holy Roman Emperor is much higher then the purchasing cost of Narmina. In 2012 his stud fees was € 12500 which is now around € 17500 and Narmina was purchased by capricorn stud in 2012 at € 9000
Regards
Godzilla said ...
03-Feb-2017
Guys
I have gone thru all the write ups of Racing pundits. Whoever likes which ever horse play in Derby - and the bet should not exceed 2 to 3K.
I am waiting for Jockyes declaration to make up mind on which Horse I should bet.
The following Horses are already Classic Winners:
1. Germanicus
2. Patmore
3. Salazaar
4. Hall of Farmer
5. Temerity.
I still feel SERJEANT stands tall compared with the Horses listed above. A Sandesh should sit on SAA.
If the Race is not run on merits, it will be Salazaar all the way so that Kingfisher can keep the money safely with them.
Jit said ...
03-Feb-2017
Pls watch the Winning Post wherein Dhunjibhoy talks of the chances of SAA in the Indian Derby.
He acknowledges that there could be limitations and he has a doosra in Mrs Patmore.
@Max The Indian Derby is a prestigious race wherein everyone would like to be a participant but few have the legs to get up there. As the astute trainer SS Shah said on the eve of the Indian Derby "If you don't race then you won't WIN !!!" Next Day Antonios etched his name in Indian racing history at 25 to 1.
As for SAA he has his chinks as seen in Mysore and its a fact that he is better over a mile than he is over a mile and 2, but HE IS THE ONLY ONE TO WIN 7 races. Ray's Serenade has produced such good horses like Allies Serenade, Frida Kahlo, Onassis, Diego Riviera, one-eyed Spirituall but never an Indian Derby Winner. Its about time !
As for the having never won line of comments, it will be the first for Ikhtyar and also for Sulaiman, Sandesh and Vispy - the last named by far is a hardworking OWNER !!!
I, for one, will cheer the Serjeant in the straight and somewhere in the last 200 meters I would also like to exclaim "WHAT A HORSE!!!"
Good Luck All !
Rrajesh said ...
03-Feb-2017
if SAA odds are anything more than 1.5 it will be a good bet for me.
Mad Max said ...
03-Feb-2017
@ Aditya
I already explained in my earlier post " My reading of the race is different, may not have that universal appeal, may not have the Experts Certificate". What is happening at horse racing front is not all that important to me to find the relationship of a horse.
Suppose your father has a brother and a sister, both of them have sons and daughters, they are automatically called your cousin brothers and cousin sisters.
In human world, half brothers or half sisters derive from the Persons who have the same father but different mothers; or the same Mother but different fathers.
So my reading of the race is on the same pattern. Be Safe and Mrs Patmore are both sired by Holy Roman Emperor on different Mothers, so I consider them as half brothers. You cannot simply laugh off my statement. In another way, Razeen's progenies or Multinational's progenies were equally respected if they run in a particular race? Then why this discrimination now Sir?
@ Ram Iyer
I personal (strictly) opinion was Indian Oaks was gifted, what else trainers like Pesi can do, when he enters three or more horses in a field. If punters fancy A and B then C will Win. If B and C are fancied, then A will win. This is the way that guy's stable works. You cant help. In this year's Derby also, it is going to be same, Shirke/Dhunjibhoy team will win the Derby with the ONE which has lucrative prices. Serjeant At Arms is owned by Dhunjibhoys & Vispi Patel, whereas Shirke has shares in another two, Mrs. Patmore and Germanicus. I still feel this Derby should be in the name of Shirke/Dhunjibhoy team. That is why Mrs. Patmore I preferred.
Aditya said ...
03-Feb-2017
@ITF
Yes it is true that George Washington had infertility problems but i don't think they retired Holy Roman Emperor as they needed a son of Danehill as they already had plenty such as Rock Of Gibraltar( By Danehill out of Offshore boom) Recorded 7 time grade one winner before The Great Frankel broke his record stretching it to ten.
I also understand that all sons of Danehill are sires of sires and all, as Danehill himself is a son of Northern Dancer who is if not the most then one of the most influential and important sires in the history of Breeding and Horse racing.
Holy Roman Emperor may have stayed over a mile but thats a chance preposition as he lost to good horses like teofilo( Galileo) at 7 furlongs, so its no guarantee even given that he was only two. I do realise that Holy Roman emperor had the Great Secretariat as his broodmare sire as Sec sired L'on Vite, Given Secretariat did much better as a broodmare sire than an over priced sire that he was , he was known to be better a dad to his daughters than his sons( if you know what i mean) I am only saying that theres a chance Holy Roman Emperor would have stayed but given his victories i termed him as a Sprinter/Miler, i assure theres no sense of authority here. Cheers my friend.
Mercyman said ...
03-Feb-2017
@aditya
There are not two but three Indian derby winners bred at nanoli stud they are Antonios, Noble eagle and Supervite. The name u mentioned Hotstepper for nanoli is incorrect as it is bred at Kehelan Stud. No one is perfect just enjoy this derby weekend and hope for best horse to win
Cheers..
Aditya said ...
03-Feb-2017
@ Mad Max,
Im sure, But according to me the Manjri stud has only bred 2 Indian derby winners with Shapoor mistry acquiring the farm, the two of them being Little over and Diabolical. Im not sure if this is the same Manjri stud farm that bred the earlier winners as Shapoor mistry bought the farm in 1984 and the winners bred after that were only two.
Not only the sex of Mrs. Patmore the relationship you derived of her and Be safe was the one i Intended to correct just by letting you know that half brothers or sisters are only connected by the dam and not the sire or else every stud farm in india would produces 70 or more half brothers/sisters in every crop which doesn't make sense as the sire for all are the same.
@ITR,
You're talking about chance, why would you make this argument at all. I called Holy Roman Emperor a Sprinter/Miler because of the distances he run and won at, you saying that he would have stayed over a mile and his retirement doesn't count because I'm talking with the info that is prevalent. Thats another arguable topic.
Stop Fooling Punter said ...
03-Feb-2017
Bade bade logo ki badi badi baaaten [big people have big talks].
So let us not get caught in their slipstream.One will never know their plans as betting exceeds crores[Dubai big center].
WE have to decide some thing due to the contest ,but betting a big NO in this race.
Ramiyer said ...
03-Feb-2017
No body will gift this race o others.If we are thinking in that line then we are living in a fools paradise.There are three runners in which KND has a say.but with different trainers.If the owners insist to have Germanicus as their pace setter then it will end up as a Noble eagle.When Noble eagle won ,after the race P. belose was stunned that he won,he infact told that once he reached the final 300 mtres he could knew that he was in a chance as the horse was not tiring.It cannot be called as Doosra.
Searjant stands tall in this set.If the connections use Germanicus as a pace setter I firmly believe it may runaway with the race.
Santosh Kumar Vk said ...
03-Feb-2017
Manjri stud bred I.D. Winners
year Winner jockey owner trainer
2/4/2007 DIABOLICAL Major Impact(USA) ex Double Quick (IRE) Colm O' Donoghue Dr. M.A.M.Ramaswamy S Ganapathy
2/6/1994 LITTLEOVER Bolder Than Bold(USA) ex Sterling Lass P Shroff Dr. & Mrs.Vijay Mallya R R Byramji
3/18/1973 MANSOOR King's Son ex Butterfly P Khade Mr & Mrs F M Potia S S Shah
2/1/1970 THUNDER STORM Gul Mohar ex Canary J Wilson M/S M H Khajotia, H H Vaziralli And Sohrab Karaka D P Pandole
1/29/1967 NIJINSKY E J Cracknell Mrs Mary H Wadia S M Shah
2/4/1962 LOYAL MANZAR S Smith Mr K P Singhania and Mrs A L J Talib A L J Talib
2/5/1961 ALIJAH P Khade H H The Maharaja Scindia Of Gwalior Maj V M Lad
1/31/1960 ROSE DE BAHAMA W A Rickaby H H The Maharaja Of Idar Narayan Singh
2/12/1956 STAR OF GWALIOR J Egan H H The Maharaja Scindia Of Gwalior Maj V M Lad
Mad Max said ...
03-Feb-2017
@ Aditya
In my letter to @ ITF, I clarified that - I have prepared the list of Sires accordingly where the Sires are at the moment standing. My reading of the race is different, may not have that universal appeal. After all the title post created to express my choices in the Derby and I chosen three horses owned by Shirke/Dhunjibhoy team fighting for the first three places. Now coming back to Manjri Stud bred horses won in Indian Derby, list as below:
Year/Horse Name/Stud/Jockey/Trainer
12/2/1956 Star of Gwalior Manjri J Egan Maj V M Lad
5/2/1961 Alijah Manjri P Khade Maj V M Lad
4/2/1962 Loyal Manzar Manjri S Smith A L J Talib
1/2/1970 Thunder Storm Manjri J Wilson D P Pandole
6/2/1994 Littleover Manjri P Shroff R R Byramji
4/2/2007 Diabolical Manjri Colm O'Donoghue S Ganapathy
18/03/1973 Mansoor Manjri P Khade S S Shah
29/01/1967 Nijinsky Manjri E J Cracknell S M Shah
31/01/1960 Rose De Bahama Manjri W A Rickaby Narayan Singh
Yes Sir Aditya, I do google a lot, I never miss any article on horseracing on the net. Sometime make mistakes also while writing, like Mrs Patmore's sex. These things should be avoided to be a good writer. But everyone cannot be a Major or half of his size and stature.
RWITC website published the list of horses that won Indian Derbies since 1943. Browse the following link, there you will get everything including Manjri/Nanoli bred winners. Just copy the list to an excel sheet, and sort it, yearwise, bred at-wise, jockey wise, trainer wise.
www.rwitc.com/viewArticles.php?id=2729
There are indeed some information and thanks for educating us.
@ ITF
Thanks for explaining certain things. I have no GURU in horse racing. Whatever I learned or grasped on horse racing so far is from the ocean of articles available on internet only. Thanks for educating us.
Indian_turf_record said ...
02-Feb-2017
@ Aditya
While it is true that Holy Roman Emperor never won beyond a mile, it is incorrect to brand him as sprinter/miler because he only raced as 2YO. Had he raced at 3, he may have won at longer distances. He had to be retired to stud because George Washington proved infertile and Coolmore needed another son of Danehill to take his place.
Holy Roman Emperor's covering fee in 2012 was 12,500 euros. Narmina was purchased for 9,000 euros !
Indian_turf_record said ...
02-Feb-2017
@ Mad Max
Adiya has partly explained what I pointed out. A horse is "bred" at the establishment the mare foals. Similarly, a horse is "bred" by the person or entity which owns the mare on date she foals.
If Germanicus wins the breeders' premium will go to Dr. Cyrus S. Poonawalla, Hyperion Bloodstock Pvt. Ltd. and Mrs. Hoosain S. Nensey who were the joint owners of the mare Phenomenale when Germanicus was born. Ponits for Champion Stud Farm, however, will go to Nanoli Stud where Germanicus was foaled. Capricorn Stud will not get anything.
As far as 'got-abroads' like Supreme General are concerned, the mares were imported in-foal and they foaled in India. Where the stallions are standing is immaterial.
You have shown Usha with 13 wins which is correct. One of Usha winners is Starsky whose sire was then standing at Lanwades Stud. By your logic, then Usha should have 12 winners and Lanwades one whereas you have shown Lanwades as zero.
@ Aditya
Nanoli Stud is indeed correctly credited with three Indian Derby winners since Supervite, Noble Eagle and Antonios where born there.
Aditya said ...
02-Feb-2017
@Mad Max
A little additional piece of Information for you, Temerity is very stoutly bred as her dam Narmina is from a very well bred Aga Khan family of horses so hence she (Narmina) would have been much more expensive to buy than Holy Roman Emperor's Stud fee, so your argument fails to impress. Im not disputing Mrs. Patmore as she's bred well too as she's bred by a sprinter/Miler to a Very good staying family which includes winners of the Ascot Gold Cup(4000M). Also note, Silver Beauty is a got abroad Bred by The Poonawalla stud Farms. And your article says Manjri stud has bred 9 derby winners, Can you please name them for all of us?
By reading this it looks like you've Google searched the Sires of all Got abroads in the race and Found out which stud farm they're standing in and entered their names above.
Again, cheers and Best of Luck.
Aditya said ...
02-Feb-2017
@Mad Max
There are so many errors in this piece of writing, Firstly the Nanoli stud has only bred two derby winners, Indictment was Razeen bred so hence was bred at Usha, The other two being, Hostepper and Antonios both sons of Glory Of Dancer (Shareef Dancer).
Biggest Flaw in your Comment is you saying that Mrs Patmore is a Half Brother to Be Safe even though she's a filly, Lets rest that cause. Just because she's also sired By Holy Roman Emperor, it doesn't make her a half sister to Be safe, Half Brother/Sisters are only counted or Related through the dam( Mother) not the Sire( Father).
Lastly, Mrs. Patmore and all the got broads you've mentioned are not bred at the international stud farms like coolmore, The local stud owners only send the mares they own to get covered by international stallions for a better progeny hence please check and you will find that Mrs Patmore is bred at Nanoli. The funniest Part of this write up is the way you've compared the Horses to the stud fee of their sire, My goodness thats Hysterical we all had quite a laugh. Don't get in things that do not matter on a Macroeconomical Approach.
Cheers and Good luck.
Mad Max said ...
02-Feb-2017
@ Indian_Turf_Record
Definitely I have overlooked Germanicus. To my dismay you credited it to Nanoli Stud. I think Whatisthescript is standing at Capricorn Stud. If it wins, who will receive the prize for Stud? Nanoli or Capricorn?
I have prepared my list of Sires accordingly where the Sires are at the moment standing.
Are you saying Old Forrester & Courageous Cat are now standing at Hazara?. Aussie Rules at Poonawalla Stud Farms and Intense Focus at Equus? This is news to me. Surprisingly their parent stud farms' websites still advertising their stud fees and reporting the sires are standing at their stud farms.
Thanks and regards
Indian_turf_record said ...
02-Feb-2017
@ Mad Max
In your informative list of runners and stud farms, you have missed out Germanicus (Nanoli Stud). Also please note that in case any of the following horses win, the honours will be given as under -
Supreme General and Winter Renaissance - Hazara Stud
Silver Beauty - Poonawalla Farms
Mrs Patmore - Nanoli Stud
Temerity - Equus Stud
Dr Harun said ...
02-Feb-2017
Temerity has the best credentials.
She looked full of running at the finish in the Indian Oaks.
If she has taken the Oaks run well she will be there at the finish.
Ideal to play each way.Hedge place for safety
Mad Max said ...
02-Feb-2017
@ Skvk
@ Sfp
My clear choice is Mrs.Patmore. Be Safe's half brother should win this Derby from Serjeant At Arms. Temerity wont be sighted. Germenicus may finish third. Hall of Famer has beaten ordinary animals in Kolkata has to fight with Germenicus for a place. I don't trust Pesi any more. He has already tasted success with Jacqueline 8 years back for the same team. Vijay Shirke/Dhunjibhoy team has entered 3 horses. In 2003 also they entered three horses. They tried with the least fancied horse NOBLE EAGLE and that ran away from the field. Since Temerity has beaten Mrs. Patmore former will be fancied than Mrs.Patmore, and if all is well, Mrs. Patmore will ran away from this field. All my money is on Mrs. Patmore ONLY.
Santosh Kumar Vk said ...
02-Feb-2017
Sadly ID is not run to be gifted on a Platter,
The best horse on the day wins,Not the stud farm,the jockey or the owner.
They arrive on the scene after the race.
Pl try to spot the Winner,putting aside what you have posted above.
You will make a killing.
Regards.
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