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Back to listsMemories And Lessons On J.p.combinations
By Stv,chennai | 30-May-2017
Race goers will always remember the great carryover at Bombay in 2003.A carried over amount of 40 lakhs swelled to one crore with the days investments.It was reported that a punter at Mumbai was the sole winner.
I nominated all winners [either alone or in a group]in all the four legs but missed it on the feature event.
The said event was the McDowell Indian Derby over 2400 mtrs.I selected runners who had covered more than 2000 till then and ignored the others.Noble Eagle belonged to the second group.But to everyone's amazement,jockey P.Belose rode the horse to a start to finish effort and won the race.Aslam Khader on Zuberan and Pesi Shroff on Classical Act did their best to catch up with the winner but failed.
I missed that great JP on Noble Eagle only.
Later ruminating on the great loss I reckoned that my unnecessary additions to hot favorites [that i ,like others fancied to win]in other legs was the reason for my failure to hit or share that great JP.
There are other such instances but i would like to avoid stating them here for more than one reason.
The lesson learnt was to avoid unnecessary additions in legs of JP where you had covered the flukes in a particular event;in my case that only made me delete Noble Eagle;this would enable one to include more or all runners in race where you are not very certain of the result.
My other conclusions on framing a JP;-
1.If you reckon it is going to be favorites all the way,better avoid investment in JP.
2.If you reckon that in one or two legs,favorite is not gong to win but some other horse\s [which find a place in media selections]are going to win ,adjust your investment just enough to include them.That said ,if you feel that the Dividend is not going to be up to your satisfaction ,avoid the investment.
3.If you have hit upon a rank fluke ,just BANK that runner and work out your combination;in other words,do not include other runners in that leg of JP.If your hunch is correct ,you stand the chances of hitting a solo or big JP.
Now that racing is not there in Bangalore till Saturday,I have given enough food for thought on framing of JP.
Waiting to receive your nods and nays....
STV,chennai
39 Replies
Ayyarnet said ...
05-Jun-2017
Kind Attn : Libero
For your question only the Trainer knows the correct answer. If there is a feeling or evidence that the Horse is sure to win quite a lot of people dump money in crores on the favorite and if the trainer feels no point in betting at a very crumbled odds and then every thing will be his choice especially for a classic event. But a few trainers NOT INTERESTED IN MONEY BUT ONLY TROPHY will not do this unethical act. Once for having done certain manipulation you have to safeguard your act so the Horse will not overtake the other horse in rest of the races.Everything could have been planned with the full knowledge of the owners concerned. Afterwards everything will be a Drama. We have to take it as a part of the Game.
Jockey Suraj Nareddu telephoned to Late Dr.MAM that Be Safe should not be allowed to run in Indian track but should be sent abroad!!
From my experience in turf I can say that Trainer R.R.Byramjee had a tremendous will for winning. His horses wins the race irrespective of the odds.Now he is too old and his age takes its toll so he does not shine much.
Regards
Ayyarnet
For your question only the Trainer knows the correct answer. If there is a feeling or evidence that the Horse is sure to win quite a lot of people dump money in crores on the favorite and if the trainer feels no point in betting at a very crumbled odds and then every thing will be his choice especially for a classic event. But a few trainers NOT INTERESTED IN MONEY BUT ONLY TROPHY will not do this unethical act. Once for having done certain manipulation you have to safeguard your act so the Horse will not overtake the other horse in rest of the races.Everything could have been planned with the full knowledge of the owners concerned. Afterwards everything will be a Drama. We have to take it as a part of the Game.
Jockey Suraj Nareddu telephoned to Late Dr.MAM that Be Safe should not be allowed to run in Indian track but should be sent abroad!!
From my experience in turf I can say that Trainer R.R.Byramjee had a tremendous will for winning. His horses wins the race irrespective of the odds.Now he is too old and his age takes its toll so he does not shine much.
Regards
Ayyarnet
Gavin said ...
05-Jun-2017Ayyarnet
I am not trying support the club but only and only the truth.
As far as your question regarding making a wrong horse favourite, I have to submit that 'wrong' or 'right' are relative terms before the race, only the winner becomes the 'right' horse after the race.
Libero said ...
04-Jun-2017
@ Confused P
Regarding Be Safe, it won over Quasar only once and Quasar beaten it many a times and still you think Be Safe superior to Quasar?
Regarding Be Safe, it won over Quasar only once and Quasar beaten it many a times and still you think Be Safe superior to Quasar?
Ayyarnet said ...
04-Jun-2017Dear Gavin Sir :
We appreciate your ardent support to the club.I mean as per your opinion when you make an allegation you must have concrete evidence. I agree absolutely. The only trump card we have is Why the JP should be carried forward just before Classic event. We have witnessed so many times as a routine this malpractice. That is why we took the privilege of expressing our opinion.Sincere apologies in case your good self felt that we have made an allegation without ant evidence.
Racing is only just hobby for me. I play only my favorite jockey or owners Horses just one or two Races including DAYS BEST and watch the rest of the races for Thamasha I do not have any contacts with any trainer or owner or access to any official in the race course. Only benefit acquired was I have added many people in the list of my friends.
I was a loser in the Races till I was corrected by good Sindhi Gentleman in the Race Course telling me Ayyar ji aap hamesha Lakshmi ko pakdo meaning Play only frquently winning Jockeys or Trainers. Even if you lose next time you will reecover your loss. Before playing as per your opinion see that chances of winning exists. Other races just watch for fun . When you play do play a good amount and you must be an investor and NOT A GAMBLER. I am grateful to this gentle man who showed me the correct way of playing. His guidance helped me to recover my loss and made me to gain little money also.
Regards
Ayyarnet
Gavin said ...
04-Jun-2017
Ayyarnet
I had categorically asked you as well as STV whether you had concrete information that race clubs were fixing races to sabotage the JP or it was your conjecture. While both of you have only once again asserted that it was happening, I was hoping that at least you would have confirmed that you had ‘concrete information’ to support your contention. Since it has not happened, it indicates that your contention is based on your observation that many times in the past JP used to get carried over either just before the classics or at the end of a season.
Since you don’t wish to argue any further, I am only pointing out an anomaly or even a contradiction in your own observations for your perusal.
Even in the past as far back as in the seventies, eighties and nineties, the parking area of the Mahalaxmi race course used to be packed to capacity on classic days with some vehicles having to be parked at odd places outside the racecourse premises. Secondly, at the start of a new season, normally race goers used to be itching to go the racecourse having been denied the opportunity to bet after the end of the previous season. In both the cases, there was no need for the race club to resort to such dubious practice. Hence, the inference drawn that the club used to fix races just before the classics or at the end of a season does not hold water.
I had categorically asked you as well as STV whether you had concrete information that race clubs were fixing races to sabotage the JP or it was your conjecture. While both of you have only once again asserted that it was happening, I was hoping that at least you would have confirmed that you had ‘concrete information’ to support your contention. Since it has not happened, it indicates that your contention is based on your observation that many times in the past JP used to get carried over either just before the classics or at the end of a season.
Since you don’t wish to argue any further, I am only pointing out an anomaly or even a contradiction in your own observations for your perusal.
Even in the past as far back as in the seventies, eighties and nineties, the parking area of the Mahalaxmi race course used to be packed to capacity on classic days with some vehicles having to be parked at odd places outside the racecourse premises. Secondly, at the start of a new season, normally race goers used to be itching to go the racecourse having been denied the opportunity to bet after the end of the previous season. In both the cases, there was no need for the race club to resort to such dubious practice. Hence, the inference drawn that the club used to fix races just before the classics or at the end of a season does not hold water.
Ayyarnet said ...
04-Jun-2017Gavin sir:
Since you have the privilege of being inside the industry can you please be kind enough to give your opinion that sometimes our generous Bookmakers dump a hefty amount in the tote to make a wrong horse as Favorite !!
Recently last week in the Mysore Race No: 1 the Horse Saturn displayed exemplary track timing and the time clocked by this horse was far far from other horses running in the race. I was absolutely 100% sure of this Horse winning the Race. But the wrong Horse Power of God was made favorite. Similarly many wrong horses are made as favorite by vested interests. What is your opinion ?
Regards
ayyarnet
Ayyarnet said ...
04-Jun-2017
since the title of the thread is MEMORIES. We the senior Punters are very much thankful to the distinguished owners like Late Dr.MAM, Khaitan and Dr.Vijay Mallaya and of late Dr.Cyrus Poonawalla and even our Farook
I have been following the Horses of Dr.MAM right from Half-a-crown, Birthday Girl, Own Opinion etc etc., Al though we all made little money out of his horses, Dr.MAM departed as a sad person. He lost his Pro-chancellorship of the very University founded by his fore fathers. He had difference of opinion with his adopted son. He was blessed with all the possible prosperity but departed as a sad person. Even though it was a rainy day something in my mind forced me to attend his funeral in chennai and pay our respect to him. His love for Horses indeed immense.I do not think that we will find an owner like him in the near future.
We are all sorry for Dr.Vijay Mallaya and we do hope that his problems will be solved amicably soon.
Whenever we win we must express our thanks to the owners for having purchased an expensive Horse and employing a good Trainer as well as a talented Jockey so that we all make little money in addition to the thrilling experience of watching a race. I really wonder still I am unable to understand the irony of these distinguished owners getting into problem in spite of their blessings with all the prosperity in the world.
Out of all Race Courses I like Mahalaxmi Race Course where you find all sorts of people cosmopolitan color. I used to watch the entertaining talk from the punters - "Mera goda Muthalasthana thumhara Khabarsthana" Jockey aur thoda chabuk marththatho na mera goda jaroor gusjathatha Kismath karab hai.
When someone points that same owner receiving trophy - fans shouting Cup Ramko mile or Gopu ko mile thumko kya karnahai ji Goda jeetha hai na paise lelo bhag jav politics me math jav !
Unfortunately our chennai Race Course looks like a haunted house - Bhooth Bungalow without much entertainment.
Best wishes to all.
ayyarnet
I have been following the Horses of Dr.MAM right from Half-a-crown, Birthday Girl, Own Opinion etc etc., Al though we all made little money out of his horses, Dr.MAM departed as a sad person. He lost his Pro-chancellorship of the very University founded by his fore fathers. He had difference of opinion with his adopted son. He was blessed with all the possible prosperity but departed as a sad person. Even though it was a rainy day something in my mind forced me to attend his funeral in chennai and pay our respect to him. His love for Horses indeed immense.I do not think that we will find an owner like him in the near future.
We are all sorry for Dr.Vijay Mallaya and we do hope that his problems will be solved amicably soon.
Whenever we win we must express our thanks to the owners for having purchased an expensive Horse and employing a good Trainer as well as a talented Jockey so that we all make little money in addition to the thrilling experience of watching a race. I really wonder still I am unable to understand the irony of these distinguished owners getting into problem in spite of their blessings with all the prosperity in the world.
Out of all Race Courses I like Mahalaxmi Race Course where you find all sorts of people cosmopolitan color. I used to watch the entertaining talk from the punters - "Mera goda Muthalasthana thumhara Khabarsthana" Jockey aur thoda chabuk marththatho na mera goda jaroor gusjathatha Kismath karab hai.
When someone points that same owner receiving trophy - fans shouting Cup Ramko mile or Gopu ko mile thumko kya karnahai ji Goda jeetha hai na paise lelo bhag jav politics me math jav !
Unfortunately our chennai Race Course looks like a haunted house - Bhooth Bungalow without much entertainment.
Best wishes to all.
ayyarnet
Gavin said ...
03-Jun-2017
Confused P
This is my take on the four cased you have cited.
Be Safe : The less said the better.
Mogadishu : I don’t think so. Desert God did not produce the acceleration that was expected of him when asked for an effort. At that stage of his career, DG was not as well proven as Be Safe was at the time of his invitation run. Benefit of doubt therefore goes to the rider.
Ice Glacier : Based on their performances in the Bangalore Summer Derby, IG had to find only two lengths over the favourite. It would have been eminently possible with the far more forceful David Allan replacing Neeraj Rawal in the saddle and considering that SAA was hard ridden to win that race. It so happened that SAA made matters worse by being restless in the starting stall and taking an awkward jump.
Rollerball and Aslam Kader : Aslam was slapped with a 2 year suspension only because he did not display the crooked smartness shown by some riders in recent times by defending his ride but admitted to his guilt. Rollerball was also not owned by highly influential sponsor owners who could have defended his case in front of the stewards. Although I am aware of the reasons, I am committed not to disclose them.
STV
A condescending tone can also sound offensive and similar care should be taken while giving advice even if it is well meant.
This is my take on the four cased you have cited.
Be Safe : The less said the better.
Mogadishu : I don’t think so. Desert God did not produce the acceleration that was expected of him when asked for an effort. At that stage of his career, DG was not as well proven as Be Safe was at the time of his invitation run. Benefit of doubt therefore goes to the rider.
Ice Glacier : Based on their performances in the Bangalore Summer Derby, IG had to find only two lengths over the favourite. It would have been eminently possible with the far more forceful David Allan replacing Neeraj Rawal in the saddle and considering that SAA was hard ridden to win that race. It so happened that SAA made matters worse by being restless in the starting stall and taking an awkward jump.
Rollerball and Aslam Kader : Aslam was slapped with a 2 year suspension only because he did not display the crooked smartness shown by some riders in recent times by defending his ride but admitted to his guilt. Rollerball was also not owned by highly influential sponsor owners who could have defended his case in front of the stewards. Although I am aware of the reasons, I am committed not to disclose them.
STV
A condescending tone can also sound offensive and similar care should be taken while giving advice even if it is well meant.
Ayyarnet said ...
03-Jun-2017
Kumar - Bangalore:
Thank you for your comments. I agree with you. But our main point here is ONLY JP carry Forward just before Classic Events like Derby or Invitation Cup Race ONLY.
Previously when there was no attraction like Fashion Shows or Sponsored Prizes etc., our club did indulge in manipulation of JP just to carry forward for that prominent event just to attract more Public That is all No more further argument.
If I remember correctly last year monsoon or summer meeting Mysore Race Club manipulated the last race and JP was carried forward to the next season. Much discussion took place in this column by our friends., I have also posted a note stating Mysore Club will pay for its KARMA in due course of time. I think Mysore club was asked to pay hefty amount to the Govt afterwards ( Not for JP carry forward but for other dispute)
Best Regards
ayyarnet
Thank you for your comments. I agree with you. But our main point here is ONLY JP carry Forward just before Classic Events like Derby or Invitation Cup Race ONLY.
Previously when there was no attraction like Fashion Shows or Sponsored Prizes etc., our club did indulge in manipulation of JP just to carry forward for that prominent event just to attract more Public That is all No more further argument.
If I remember correctly last year monsoon or summer meeting Mysore Race Club manipulated the last race and JP was carried forward to the next season. Much discussion took place in this column by our friends., I have also posted a note stating Mysore Club will pay for its KARMA in due course of time. I think Mysore club was asked to pay hefty amount to the Govt afterwards ( Not for JP carry forward but for other dispute)
Best Regards
ayyarnet
Kumar_blore said ...
03-Jun-2017
@ayyarnet,
I have seen lot of such jackpot carried overs too,but everytime I realised the flukes which helped jackpot carried over had chances to win but was ignored for some reasons.we had lot of good owners before who never gambled huge when their horses ran,so we were witnessing lot of such upsets.nowadays you find people owning horses to make money,it's no more a pride for present set of owners.
My uncle had won full jackpot twice couple of decades back,that says I can't doubt on race clubs indulging in jackpot carryovers.
I have seen lot of such jackpot carried overs too,but everytime I realised the flukes which helped jackpot carried over had chances to win but was ignored for some reasons.we had lot of good owners before who never gambled huge when their horses ran,so we were witnessing lot of such upsets.nowadays you find people owning horses to make money,it's no more a pride for present set of owners.
My uncle had won full jackpot twice couple of decades back,that says I can't doubt on race clubs indulging in jackpot carryovers.
Confused P said ...
03-Jun-2017
Gavin,
Mogadishu's win Mys Derby 2015, Many say it was cooked up.
Be Safe's Invitation Loss 2015, A open secret.
Ice Glacier win in Mys Derby 2016, The Stud's last chance to keep it's record of winning at least one derby in a calendar year for the last 80+ years (Pointed out Before the race by none other than Major in this very home page).
What is your take on the Above three ??
From Yesteryears, I do not know if you were around the time of Rollerball and Aslam Khader...
Mogadishu's win Mys Derby 2015, Many say it was cooked up.
Be Safe's Invitation Loss 2015, A open secret.
Ice Glacier win in Mys Derby 2016, The Stud's last chance to keep it's record of winning at least one derby in a calendar year for the last 80+ years (Pointed out Before the race by none other than Major in this very home page).
What is your take on the Above three ??
From Yesteryears, I do not know if you were around the time of Rollerball and Aslam Khader...
Stv,chennai said ...
03-Jun-2017
Gavin,
I have no doubt said that I do not rule out the possibility of clubs maneuvering a race result for the purpose of effecting a 'carry over' in JP.At the same time,my observation was in no way related to the results of the Derby cited.I shall therefore ignore your comments in this respect.
There have been instances of effecting a carry over through a deliberate act by authorities and others concerned.The point mentioned by someone here that such attempts are made on the eve of classic races in order to build up a great carry over amount for the Dday is only true.While I categorically state this,I am not in a position to cite instances bcause,[shall I once again repeat]they are far and few between.
I am happy to note your statement that you have chosen to ignore some factual errors in posts from others since you considered them not of any big importance.At the same time,I do feel that,sometimes, factual observations may assume the color of personal jibes and all of us have to be careful to avoid giving such impressions.
I have no doubt said that I do not rule out the possibility of clubs maneuvering a race result for the purpose of effecting a 'carry over' in JP.At the same time,my observation was in no way related to the results of the Derby cited.I shall therefore ignore your comments in this respect.
There have been instances of effecting a carry over through a deliberate act by authorities and others concerned.The point mentioned by someone here that such attempts are made on the eve of classic races in order to build up a great carry over amount for the Dday is only true.While I categorically state this,I am not in a position to cite instances bcause,[shall I once again repeat]they are far and few between.
I am happy to note your statement that you have chosen to ignore some factual errors in posts from others since you considered them not of any big importance.At the same time,I do feel that,sometimes, factual observations may assume the color of personal jibes and all of us have to be careful to avoid giving such impressions.
Ayyarnet said ...
03-Jun-2017
Kind Attn : Gavin
Sir:
Nowadays we have other mode of attraction like Fashion Shows and Sponsored prizes to attract public. During normal days only addicted punters visit Race course but on certain days like Classic Event or Derby or Invitation Cup Races many public used to visit race for fun even though they may not visit again. But previously say a decade ago there were no such additional events to support the special dasys. So the club had had other alternative to attract public. So now and then
the club do indulge in manipulation of races to carry forward JP. It is a fact and I repeat it is a fact. Everybody is well aware of it. Since we are aware vof it we do not grudge. Once I even wrote to the Secretary of the Club instead of indulging such activities like carry forward JP they can add a considerable amount to the collection of JP from the club funds on that particular day. No response and as usual no action. Afterwards Mr.Jain Sir took active interest and developed Sponsorship etc., That is all. You should not take it as granteed that I am backing my word. Please note that my comment is only pertaining to h JP carry forward business. Out of my experience I have witnessed many such incidents in the past. Usually 1. before Classic events 2. End of the season.
Previously there were races only 2 days in a week Saturday - Bangalore and Sunday Mumbai. Just to maintain club funds they did indulge JP carry forwared business. This is the TRUTH nothing but the WHOLE TRUTH.
For your kind information : FLUKES are only illusion. There must be some Fluke otherwise Races will lose its glamour and also JP dividend should be reasonably attractive. If every Races are won by Favorites then what you will get in JP It will become almost like Place or Forecast Dividend. In one way if you think calmly everything will be known to you.
Gavin said ...
03-Jun-2017
STV
Let’s not be over sensitive so long as the discussion is logical and does not get personal.
While you have not categorically said that the win of Noble Eagle was due to manipulations, you have not ruled out the possibility if I understood your post of 5/30/2017 9:46:35 PM correctly. If my understanding is incorrect, please ignore my comment.
The point that Ayyarnet has raised about fixing of races by race clubs to sabotage JP is an important one in my opinion. Since you have agreed with him (even if in rare instances), I would like to ask you the same question. Is your opinion based on concrete information or conjecture? I am sure many readers would be interested to know the answer and the information if any that you and Ayyarnet may have.
I do believe that I have stuck to logic and important points only and have not raked up baseless controversies. For example, someone has said that he can still remember the commentary of Cyrus Madan when in fact Rajpal had covered the race but I have not raised this point because I felt it was not important enough. When discussions take place about any topic, some writers become nostalgic, get carried away and make loose observations. Is there any controversy in asking them whether their observations are based on facts or guesswork?
As far as substantive contribution is concerned, it can also be by way of busting some myths as this one.
Let’s not be over sensitive so long as the discussion is logical and does not get personal.
While you have not categorically said that the win of Noble Eagle was due to manipulations, you have not ruled out the possibility if I understood your post of 5/30/2017 9:46:35 PM correctly. If my understanding is incorrect, please ignore my comment.
The point that Ayyarnet has raised about fixing of races by race clubs to sabotage JP is an important one in my opinion. Since you have agreed with him (even if in rare instances), I would like to ask you the same question. Is your opinion based on concrete information or conjecture? I am sure many readers would be interested to know the answer and the information if any that you and Ayyarnet may have.
I do believe that I have stuck to logic and important points only and have not raked up baseless controversies. For example, someone has said that he can still remember the commentary of Cyrus Madan when in fact Rajpal had covered the race but I have not raised this point because I felt it was not important enough. When discussions take place about any topic, some writers become nostalgic, get carried away and make loose observations. Is there any controversy in asking them whether their observations are based on facts or guesswork?
As far as substantive contribution is concerned, it can also be by way of busting some myths as this one.
Stv,chennai said ...
02-Jun-2017
Gavin,
I believe I never said that the win of Noble Eagle was due to manipulations by authorities\connections [cooked up,in your words]and the public were hoodwinked.The unexpected win of NE is only part of cherished memory of 'long time' race goers.
In my view,Ayyarnet only pointed out that 'carry overs' by means of fixing a race is not unusual in racing history;while I agreed ,I also commented that such happenings are rare instances only.
The discussions did proceed to greater lengths than I expected.Every word in them should be seen in the context in which it is written;If there are differences in the subjective analysis,it is good to express them and invite others' opinion.At the same time,it is always better to avoid controversies on unimportant points.
I am glad to note that you were 'inside the industry' for some time.I would be happy to see you with your substantive contribution here on H.T.for the benefit of all H.T.members.
thank you
I believe I never said that the win of Noble Eagle was due to manipulations by authorities\connections [cooked up,in your words]and the public were hoodwinked.The unexpected win of NE is only part of cherished memory of 'long time' race goers.
In my view,Ayyarnet only pointed out that 'carry overs' by means of fixing a race is not unusual in racing history;while I agreed ,I also commented that such happenings are rare instances only.
The discussions did proceed to greater lengths than I expected.Every word in them should be seen in the context in which it is written;If there are differences in the subjective analysis,it is good to express them and invite others' opinion.At the same time,it is always better to avoid controversies on unimportant points.
I am glad to note that you were 'inside the industry' for some time.I would be happy to see you with your substantive contribution here on H.T.for the benefit of all H.T.members.
thank you
Gavin said ...
02-Jun-2017
Dear Ayyarnet
I may not have as many racing years as you but having said that the victory of Glorious Colours was accomplished in slushy going should be enough indication that I have a decent amount of racing behind me. On top of it, having been on the inside of the industry for a few years has, I dare say, given me a much better insight into the happenings around.
Flukes will win now and then even if the races are not fixed. If they did not, it would mean that racing is far too simple because favourites will be winning all the time in which event even a bystander can make money in racing. When flukes win, it does not necessarily mean they did not have merit but only means that they were ignored by the majority of punters due to some reason or the other.
All the same, you seem to be a very sweet person to believe what you have written. Initially, you fell back on the number of years you have been racing and the proximity of your office to the Mahalaxmi race course as criteria to support your opinion. Subsequently, when you felt it was not sufficient you conceded that it may not be happening now but was definitely happening in the past. I find that to be a very very innocent and simple way of backing your opinion. Do you have any concrete information to support your opinion that the clubs fix races to sabotage the JP or is it only your conjecture?
I may not have as many racing years as you but having said that the victory of Glorious Colours was accomplished in slushy going should be enough indication that I have a decent amount of racing behind me. On top of it, having been on the inside of the industry for a few years has, I dare say, given me a much better insight into the happenings around.
Flukes will win now and then even if the races are not fixed. If they did not, it would mean that racing is far too simple because favourites will be winning all the time in which event even a bystander can make money in racing. When flukes win, it does not necessarily mean they did not have merit but only means that they were ignored by the majority of punters due to some reason or the other.
All the same, you seem to be a very sweet person to believe what you have written. Initially, you fell back on the number of years you have been racing and the proximity of your office to the Mahalaxmi race course as criteria to support your opinion. Subsequently, when you felt it was not sufficient you conceded that it may not be happening now but was definitely happening in the past. I find that to be a very very innocent and simple way of backing your opinion. Do you have any concrete information to support your opinion that the clubs fix races to sabotage the JP or is it only your conjecture?
Ayyarnet said ...
01-Jun-2017
Kind Attn: Gavin
Managing a Racing programme is not so easy job they have to keep a balance of all people. In one or two races unexpected horses must come just to filter the JP tickets so that at the end winners can get a fairly a good amount. Many people are involved here. Book Makers/Owners/Public.
You can not take it as granted Club Authorities are innocent or does not know any thing. You can not expect also that all races are run as per merit of the horses.
Since it is a sport or game we have to take it positively and enjoy . Mischief is almost a part of the game just to get more dividend.In stead of grudging we to take it as fun. Your intelligence comes only in detecting the mischief. For example whenever a owner puts 2 horses in the same race. Many times the horse with higher odds wins the race. We have witnessed so many times and we have gained much money also. Because the practice is continued our experience in the past helped us to spot the winner. In fact our earlier loss is indeed a blessings in disguise and we have noted as a point and next time similar situation we will take a chance and as expected our guess turns out to be correct many times.
If you take Racing as a Sport then it is fun in spite of all its plus and minus points still we all love Racing.
Regards
Ayyarnet
Managing a Racing programme is not so easy job they have to keep a balance of all people. In one or two races unexpected horses must come just to filter the JP tickets so that at the end winners can get a fairly a good amount. Many people are involved here. Book Makers/Owners/Public.
You can not take it as granted Club Authorities are innocent or does not know any thing. You can not expect also that all races are run as per merit of the horses.
Since it is a sport or game we have to take it positively and enjoy . Mischief is almost a part of the game just to get more dividend.In stead of grudging we to take it as fun. Your intelligence comes only in detecting the mischief. For example whenever a owner puts 2 horses in the same race. Many times the horse with higher odds wins the race. We have witnessed so many times and we have gained much money also. Because the practice is continued our experience in the past helped us to spot the winner. In fact our earlier loss is indeed a blessings in disguise and we have noted as a point and next time similar situation we will take a chance and as expected our guess turns out to be correct many times.
If you take Racing as a Sport then it is fun in spite of all its plus and minus points still we all love Racing.
Regards
Ayyarnet
Ayyarnet said ...
01-Jun-2017
Kind Attn:Gavin
Al though they may not do it now it is a fact many times Club indulged fixing races just to carry forward the JP 1) Just before classic Events 2) During ending racing season to carry forward the JP amount to next season. We have witnessed many times.
JP was carried forward just to attract Public for more collection and the lone winner could be within the inner circle of owners or trainers only.
Yes Shivsagar Estate is a Complex but my Company was having their HO in that complex.
Racing is only a Hobby for me I am not a Professional Punter and as such my knowledge is limited sir. I agree.
Regards
ayyarnet
Al though they may not do it now it is a fact many times Club indulged fixing races just to carry forward the JP 1) Just before classic Events 2) During ending racing season to carry forward the JP amount to next season. We have witnessed many times.
JP was carried forward just to attract Public for more collection and the lone winner could be within the inner circle of owners or trainers only.
Yes Shivsagar Estate is a Complex but my Company was having their HO in that complex.
Racing is only a Hobby for me I am not a Professional Punter and as such my knowledge is limited sir. I agree.
Regards
ayyarnet
Kumar_blore said ...
01-Jun-2017
@gavin,
I completely agree with you on the race fixing issues.
@ayyarnet,
No doubt couple of races are fixed by respective clubs in a season to benefit their members and those horses wins as a favourite since the information will be passed by some member or the other in his greediness to make more money.all I can say is fixing to carry a jackpot pool,am sure no club would indulge in such acts.
@STV, Chennai
Am sure you will remember noble eagle was bought by the owners just before the derby since they were lacking a pacemaker for their 2top contenders (zurbaran and another horse).
I read in some interview they had instructed belose to set good pace in the beginning stages and the jockey admitted that the horse never looked like slowing down in the closing stages and luckily belose won the derby.nobody expected the horse to stay,so I really doubt club indulging in fixing such a race.
Thanks
I completely agree with you on the race fixing issues.
@ayyarnet,
No doubt couple of races are fixed by respective clubs in a season to benefit their members and those horses wins as a favourite since the information will be passed by some member or the other in his greediness to make more money.all I can say is fixing to carry a jackpot pool,am sure no club would indulge in such acts.
@STV, Chennai
Am sure you will remember noble eagle was bought by the owners just before the derby since they were lacking a pacemaker for their 2top contenders (zurbaran and another horse).
I read in some interview they had instructed belose to set good pace in the beginning stages and the jockey admitted that the horse never looked like slowing down in the closing stages and luckily belose won the derby.nobody expected the horse to stay,so I really doubt club indulging in fixing such a race.
Thanks
Stv,chennai said ...
01-Jun-2017
When I sought to end the discussions,the reply from Gavin was not found here.Now that it is here,it is but natural to expect postings from others .
If I have anything to say,I will join after the week end.
Thanks.
If I have anything to say,I will join after the week end.
Thanks.
Stv,chennai said ...
01-Jun-2017
Yes,Mad Max,I am recollecting the fact of the strike by jockeys and subsequent decision to ride for the weekend.
The discussions on 'carry overs'and other matters and the contributions from one and all were very useful indeed.
Hoping to meet you all after the week end races in new topics that may be posted by H.T. members.
Thank you all
STV,chennai
The discussions on 'carry overs'and other matters and the contributions from one and all were very useful indeed.
Hoping to meet you all after the week end races in new topics that may be posted by H.T. members.
Thank you all
STV,chennai
Gavin said ...
01-Jun-2017
STV
Glorious Colours won as an outsider in slushy underfoot conditions. Coming to the Indian Derby, it would be far from the truth to say that Noble Eagle’s was a cooked up race and that the connections hoodwinked the racing public.
Ayyarnet
My question was if the club wanted the jackpot to be carried over and if it can fix the races at will, why would it allow one lone punter to crack the jackpot? They would make sure that it is carried over. What you are saying is pure conjecture or a sneaking suspicion. The number of years spent in racing is not necessarily directly proportional to racing insights.
By the way, Shivsagar Estate is the name of the commercial complex at Worli, not a pharmaceutical company.
Glorious Colours won as an outsider in slushy underfoot conditions. Coming to the Indian Derby, it would be far from the truth to say that Noble Eagle’s was a cooked up race and that the connections hoodwinked the racing public.
Ayyarnet
My question was if the club wanted the jackpot to be carried over and if it can fix the races at will, why would it allow one lone punter to crack the jackpot? They would make sure that it is carried over. What you are saying is pure conjecture or a sneaking suspicion. The number of years spent in racing is not necessarily directly proportional to racing insights.
By the way, Shivsagar Estate is the name of the commercial complex at Worli, not a pharmaceutical company.
Mad Max said ...
01-Jun-2017
Do you know the Bangalore Jockeys were on a 15 days sit in just before the Summer Derby 2003, however they done the silks during the weekend.
Glorious Colours was Dr. MAM's 377th Classic win.
Derby Day tote collections were Rs.3.93 Crores at BTC.
Summer Storm trained by Samar Singh destroyed the hopes of 30 Jackpot Hunters in the 5th Leg, and Rs. 13 Lakhs carried over.
Glorious Colours was Dr. MAM's 377th Classic win.
Derby Day tote collections were Rs.3.93 Crores at BTC.
Summer Storm trained by Samar Singh destroyed the hopes of 30 Jackpot Hunters in the 5th Leg, and Rs. 13 Lakhs carried over.
Ayyarnet said ...
31-May-2017
Kind Attn Gavin:
I am a Race goer for the past 30 years. Even though I am settled near Chennai enjoying my retired life before that I was working with a reputed Pharmaceutical Company near Mahalaxmi Race Course called Shivsagar Estate.
For your kind information Clubs do fix races periodically for Administrative Reasons like just to attract Punters/Public to attend Races. Previously when there was no Fashion Shows or Sponsored Prizes etc., Carried forward JP is the only attraction to invite punters/Public.
Al though Punters are the main supporters for Race Club but due to social status the club authorities does not give the due deserving respect to the punters.
Best Regards
ayyarnet
I am a Race goer for the past 30 years. Even though I am settled near Chennai enjoying my retired life before that I was working with a reputed Pharmaceutical Company near Mahalaxmi Race Course called Shivsagar Estate.
For your kind information Clubs do fix races periodically for Administrative Reasons like just to attract Punters/Public to attend Races. Previously when there was no Fashion Shows or Sponsored Prizes etc., Carried forward JP is the only attraction to invite punters/Public.
Al though Punters are the main supporters for Race Club but due to social status the club authorities does not give the due deserving respect to the punters.
Best Regards
ayyarnet
Ayyarnet said ...
31-May-2017STV Chennai:
I forgot to add in your sited case the lone winner could be the CLUB only. They might have punched the tickets in some one else name. Only Auditors could find out how such huge amount was added to club finance. But they might have managed to manipulate the accounts by any other means.
Now the Govt. is very strict such possibilities will be rare hereafter.
R.Natarajan
Ayyarnet said ...
31-May-2017
STV - chennai:
Dear STV:
Trainers, Owners, Jockeys and even Syces have their own Association to voice their opinion. From our side we have well qualified and people occupying high posts also there. I have seen in Mahalaxmi Race Course Senior Advocates Managers etc., attending the Races. I think though as you say far from reality some one should take initiative and form an association. It will be nice.
Regarding JP carry forward it is crystal clear that Club Authorities out of greediness for amazing funds do indulge such activities of course with coordination from owners and Trainers. Jockeys - they have to obey the instructions given to them.
Best Regards to all.
Ayyarnet
Dear STV:
Trainers, Owners, Jockeys and even Syces have their own Association to voice their opinion. From our side we have well qualified and people occupying high posts also there. I have seen in Mahalaxmi Race Course Senior Advocates Managers etc., attending the Races. I think though as you say far from reality some one should take initiative and form an association. It will be nice.
Regarding JP carry forward it is crystal clear that Club Authorities out of greediness for amazing funds do indulge such activities of course with coordination from owners and Trainers. Jockeys - they have to obey the instructions given to them.
Best Regards to all.
Ayyarnet
Ram said ...
31-May-2017
With 28% GST, maybe Jackpot will become more attractive.
Santosh Kumar Vk said ...
31-May-2017
It was indeed a treat to watch C.Rajendra on Glorious Colours STANDING in his saddle waving his whip high in the air as he passed the win post.
He was fined 5000/- rupees later for his antics.
He was fined 5000/- rupees later for his antics.
Stv,chennai said ...
31-May-2017
Champ,
glad to note that you backed 'Glorious Colours 'each way at very lucrative odds.
I searched the Archives and got the results of the Kingfisher Bangalore Derby that year.To refresh memory , am posting the results here;-
1.Glorious Colours-S.Ganapathy-C.Rajendra
2.Fond Fantasy-S.Ganapathy-B.Prakash
3.Brown Sugar-I.Ghatala-Mrs.Silva Storai
4Lancaster-M.Eshwar-P.Shroff
5.Ramjet-S.Padmanaban-M.Narredu
6.Grosvsnor Square-D.Byramji-D.Badel
7.Fantastic Dream-S.Ganapathy-A.Merchant
8Smart Supreme-S.Ganapathy-M.A.Gallagher
9Master craft-D.Byramji-Srinath
10-Newmacher-Z.Darasha-Suraj Nareedu
Top Executive-S.Ganapathy-M.R.Singh
glad to note that you backed 'Glorious Colours 'each way at very lucrative odds.
I searched the Archives and got the results of the Kingfisher Bangalore Derby that year.To refresh memory , am posting the results here;-
1.Glorious Colours-S.Ganapathy-C.Rajendra
2.Fond Fantasy-S.Ganapathy-B.Prakash
3.Brown Sugar-I.Ghatala-Mrs.Silva Storai
4Lancaster-M.Eshwar-P.Shroff
5.Ramjet-S.Padmanaban-M.Narredu
6.Grosvsnor Square-D.Byramji-D.Badel
7.Fantastic Dream-S.Ganapathy-A.Merchant
8Smart Supreme-S.Ganapathy-M.A.Gallagher
9Master craft-D.Byramji-Srinath
10-Newmacher-Z.Darasha-Suraj Nareedu
Top Executive-S.Ganapathy-M.R.Singh
Confused P said ...
31-May-2017
Gavin,
It has happened. Till few years back, Before a Derby or Invitation, JP would be carried over for 3 days so that the JP would be a major attraction on the said Classic Day and punters would come in large numbers. Once in a while it would happen on other days also, just to attract more punters. This definitely would have happened with the instructions coming from the Club Authorities and owners/trainers/jockey following it.
It has happened. Till few years back, Before a Derby or Invitation, JP would be carried over for 3 days so that the JP would be a major attraction on the said Classic Day and punters would come in large numbers. Once in a while it would happen on other days also, just to attract more punters. This definitely would have happened with the instructions coming from the Club Authorities and owners/trainers/jockey following it.
Gavin said ...
31-May-2017Ayyarnet
If club wanted to carry over the jackpot why did it allow it to be won by a single punter? Or did they somehow know who held the winning ticket and deliberately allow that privileged punter to win? That would mean apart from the connections and the bookies, the race clubs also fix races.That sounds too far fetched.
Champ said ...
31-May-2017
Agree with all the points made by respected STV. Especially the 3rd one is one of the best ways to hit paydirt.
Champ said ...
31-May-2017
Same year Bangalore summer derby, I have fond memories. I was at Delhi that time. MAM Ramaswamy owned Fond Fantasy, ridden by B.Prakash, was the 1000 Guineas winner & a Byramji horse, Grosvenor's Square, ridden by David Badel was the 2000 Guineas winner. Both started joint favourites & odds eased up to 3 & more on both before race time. There was another MAM horse named Glorious Colours, ridden by C.Rajendra. It had a solitary career start as a favourite over 1200 metres, where after trailing the wrong end of the field for most part of the race, it flew in the end to lose only by a shd. At Delhi the horse had odds of 60/1 for win & 7/1 for place. I backed the horse 100 rupees each way, and was elated when it flew to beat fancied stablemate to annex the derby.
The day was full of upsets. I had taken a super jackpot ticket with favourite bankers in first leg & last leg, and combination of upsets in other four legs. The first leg favourite was at 2 & 1/4 & it obliged. I am not recollecting the name of the horse now, but it always used to oblige in soft underfoot conditions. Penetrometer reading was high and hence I banked on it. Penultimate leg, Malesh Narredu ridden Venus Arising, which had finished in the ruck in previous outing due to being badly hampered, was quoted at 8/1. It literally flew in last 50 metres & covered 5 lengths to collar up the runaway favourite at last step. But the last leg favourite didn't oblige. I got a consolation SJP of 16300 rupees.
Sweet memories, in racing, are hard to come by. So some of them stay in mind.....
The day was full of upsets. I had taken a super jackpot ticket with favourite bankers in first leg & last leg, and combination of upsets in other four legs. The first leg favourite was at 2 & 1/4 & it obliged. I am not recollecting the name of the horse now, but it always used to oblige in soft underfoot conditions. Penetrometer reading was high and hence I banked on it. Penultimate leg, Malesh Narredu ridden Venus Arising, which had finished in the ruck in previous outing due to being badly hampered, was quoted at 8/1. It literally flew in last 50 metres & covered 5 lengths to collar up the runaway favourite at last step. But the last leg favourite didn't oblige. I got a consolation SJP of 16300 rupees.
Sweet memories, in racing, are hard to come by. So some of them stay in mind.....
Stv,chennai said ...
30-May-2017
Dear Vishnu G,
The implications of GST on racing have been clearly expressed by Mr.Vivek Jain .He has opined that the proposed impost is certain to have adverse effects on racing,breeding and employment.
There has also been a lot of discussions on the subject by knowledgeable members here and Mr.Braganza has given a vivid picture.At the present i am afraid that I do not have much to add on the subject.At the same time I would like to give a closer look at the implications myself as an accountant.I would like to assure you that if I were to come across any further relevant information on my scrutiny,I will certainly post them here.
Thank you
STV,chennai
The implications of GST on racing have been clearly expressed by Mr.Vivek Jain .He has opined that the proposed impost is certain to have adverse effects on racing,breeding and employment.
There has also been a lot of discussions on the subject by knowledgeable members here and Mr.Braganza has given a vivid picture.At the present i am afraid that I do not have much to add on the subject.At the same time I would like to give a closer look at the implications myself as an accountant.I would like to assure you that if I were to come across any further relevant information on my scrutiny,I will certainly post them here.
Thank you
STV,chennai
Stv,chennai said ...
30-May-2017
Dear ayyarnet,
Thank you for your response.You have opined that the club authorities would have tried to carry forward the JP having found out the number of tickets on the penultimate leg of the pool.I would not completely rule out such a possibility but I have had that suspicion on very rare occasions.Moreover,the event was Derby in the cited case.The horse was owned by Vijay.B.Shirke who was a master tactician himself.But he tried to conceal the potential of his horses only through acknowledged racing tactics.
As for your grievance that all is not fair with racing in any center and racing patrons should do something to redeem the situation by forming a racegoers association,I like to point out that the idea has been mooted time and again in this forum .I like to add that the idea had remained a dream so far and I ,for one, do not see any possibility of its becoming a reality in the near future.
thanking you
STV,chennai
Thank you for your response.You have opined that the club authorities would have tried to carry forward the JP having found out the number of tickets on the penultimate leg of the pool.I would not completely rule out such a possibility but I have had that suspicion on very rare occasions.Moreover,the event was Derby in the cited case.The horse was owned by Vijay.B.Shirke who was a master tactician himself.But he tried to conceal the potential of his horses only through acknowledged racing tactics.
As for your grievance that all is not fair with racing in any center and racing patrons should do something to redeem the situation by forming a racegoers association,I like to point out that the idea has been mooted time and again in this forum .I like to add that the idea had remained a dream so far and I ,for one, do not see any possibility of its becoming a reality in the near future.
thanking you
STV,chennai
Vishnu G said ...
30-May-2017
Mr STV
what are your views in the latest 28 % gst
your comments plz
what are your views in the latest 28 % gst
your comments plz
Ayyarnet said ...
30-May-2017
Kind Attn STV Chennai
For your kind information even if you have given Noble Eagle in your ticket still some other horse not given in your ticket would have won the race !!!!! When the club decided to carry forward the JP they can find out through computer number of tickets in every leg horse wise. So even if you have given Noble Eagle they would have instructed another jockey to take a start to finish with instructions to other jockeys NOT to over take the horse selected rather fixed for the race. This is the real trick. Nowadays they do not follow still old habits will continue.Punters can do nothing. We can teach a lesson to the club provided we have cooperation. Today in Tamil Nadu all Pharmacy Shops put their shutters as a protest against on line trading etc., Similarly we the punters also should have the privilege of taking objection. If there is no punters in the Race Course what the club can do.Just imagine for a while. They will postpone the Races. In Chennai previously whenever there is no Off-course betting attendance will be very thin for Chennai Races so the MRC club will quietly announce Chennai Races are postponed due to administrative reasons !!!
The thing is neither we the punters have a leadership nor cooperation. What happened last week. Bangalore Races are postponed due to rain. Similarly why we can not have solidarity to show our protest to forego one day race thinking that races are postponed. Although it may not happen during our life time since we have crossed 70 years. I am quite sure things will change punters will have unity in the near future.
Like every one we the senior punters also have lost lot of money in Races initially. Since we had substantial regular income loss in races did not affect our personal life much. Some how by changing methods or following a winning jockey( V.Shinde/Aslam Khader/B.Prakash ) Trainers like R.R. Byramjee Trainer Pesi Shroff or Winning Owners like Late Dr.MAM or Khaitan, Dhunji Bhai, Cyrus Poonawala or even Ranjit Bhatt who won 3 Derby consecutively with his Horse Commanche, Squanderer and Manitou we have recovered our losses and made little money also. But it requires sustained effort and patience and also bit Mind Control for impulsive betting.
Best wishes to all.
ayyarnet
For your kind information even if you have given Noble Eagle in your ticket still some other horse not given in your ticket would have won the race !!!!! When the club decided to carry forward the JP they can find out through computer number of tickets in every leg horse wise. So even if you have given Noble Eagle they would have instructed another jockey to take a start to finish with instructions to other jockeys NOT to over take the horse selected rather fixed for the race. This is the real trick. Nowadays they do not follow still old habits will continue.Punters can do nothing. We can teach a lesson to the club provided we have cooperation. Today in Tamil Nadu all Pharmacy Shops put their shutters as a protest against on line trading etc., Similarly we the punters also should have the privilege of taking objection. If there is no punters in the Race Course what the club can do.Just imagine for a while. They will postpone the Races. In Chennai previously whenever there is no Off-course betting attendance will be very thin for Chennai Races so the MRC club will quietly announce Chennai Races are postponed due to administrative reasons !!!
The thing is neither we the punters have a leadership nor cooperation. What happened last week. Bangalore Races are postponed due to rain. Similarly why we can not have solidarity to show our protest to forego one day race thinking that races are postponed. Although it may not happen during our life time since we have crossed 70 years. I am quite sure things will change punters will have unity in the near future.
Like every one we the senior punters also have lost lot of money in Races initially. Since we had substantial regular income loss in races did not affect our personal life much. Some how by changing methods or following a winning jockey( V.Shinde/Aslam Khader/B.Prakash ) Trainers like R.R. Byramjee Trainer Pesi Shroff or Winning Owners like Late Dr.MAM or Khaitan, Dhunji Bhai, Cyrus Poonawala or even Ranjit Bhatt who won 3 Derby consecutively with his Horse Commanche, Squanderer and Manitou we have recovered our losses and made little money also. But it requires sustained effort and patience and also bit Mind Control for impulsive betting.
Best wishes to all.
ayyarnet
Stv,chennai said ...
30-May-2017
dear ramiyer,
thanks,I knew old timers would remember.Yes,Chennai is a different story all together ,but changing its color now,it seems!
thanks,I knew old timers would remember.Yes,Chennai is a different story all together ,but changing its color now,it seems!
Ramiyer said ...
30-May-2017
Valid observation dear STV, especially the first and third point.I still remember the commentry of Cyrus madan who was at full throat when Noble eagle was cruising.Even Jockey Belose was not realised the chances till it reached near the last 200 mtres.It is a futile exercise when you know that favourite may dominate in the jp races in big centres. But in chennai, delhi, calcutta even one or two of aboce 8 to 1 odds wins and the remaining three legs favourites wins you are assured of good returns.
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