Chanakya

Thanks for the explanation. I overlooked the fact that they were lay bets. As far as I know all bookies give half share of the tax to a punter who eats amounts above 10000/-

contd.
Gavin, Nothing is ailing me and I am going to outlive most of 'them'. Perhaps you have not noticed the sarcasm underneath that posting - 6/9/2017, 8.16:35AM...

Chanakya Sirji,
Btw, you have not clarified about your health status. What is ailing you?
Doubt Clarification is incomplete,
You can even call me to clear Doubts Sir.
Regards

@ Gavin,
I did not notice your posting because I stopped writing here. But it would have been wrong if I don’t reply to your query.
Well, calculation of ‘return’ in case of ‘lay’ or ‘eating’ tips are different than on win. You are right, that 4Lakh on 18/10 win will give me another 7.2L and my kitty will be 11.2lakhs.
But in case of lay or ‘eat’ bet the calculations will be – 4 lakh divided and NOT multiplied by 18/10. Hence the return will be 4/18/10 = 40/18 = 2.2222...., i.e. 2. 2lakhs+ . Adding few thousands from my pocket to bring it to a round figure of 2.3 Lakhs after ‘winning’ a lay or eat bet and getting back my original investment of 4 lakhs and adding it to this win will give a figure of 6.3Lakhs. This was used for next bet. Except the roll bets, punters use and bookies will accept round figure bets only. I hope I have clarified your doubt.

Chanakya

I don’t intend to contest your claim but there seem to be some serious calculation errors in the details of the four bets your have given here apart from the ones Raghavan has pointed out. For example, a bet of 4 lakh (on HapticStar) at 18/10 would give your total returns of 11.2 lakh including the profit of 7.2 lakh. Similar is the case with the 12th bet Angelic Aria. The discrepancy in tax rate not being at a uniform at 10% also affects the credibility of the calculations.

Be that as it may. It seems that the problem is arising not so much out of your claim of having won a pile of dough but out of the ‘all out attempt to prove it’. Frankly, if I had made my money I could not have cared less whether anybody believed it or not. I think you should not bother about it either. How does that matter anyway?

Btw, you have not clarified about your health status. What is ailing you?

Dear All concerned,

I have made it clear that my initial reaction to 'good bye' from Chanakya was out of a feeling of pity if the gentleman was doing so out of hurt feelings on HT.The subsequent replies and clarifications are there for everyone to see.

In fact everything has gone back to claims and questions.I do not want to join that debate.
I only feel sorry now that a post with a good intention on my part has now changed to a debate like the way it has turned.

I now humbly REQUEST all concerned to move away from this topic or thread and say 'good bye' to the same.

with regards to all
STV.

@Chanakya,

"the rabbit that I caught had only 3 legs"

First let me say the discrepancies in the 4 horse roll that you have given here.

You ate a 90ps horse. For 120000 risk + 12000 tax you got 240000.
You ate a 1.00 horse. For 220000 risk + 22000 tax you got 440000.
You ate a 1.80 horse. For 400000 risk + 40000 tax you got 630000.
You ate a 1.60 horse. For 600000 risk + 40000 tax you got 10 lakhs.

If what all you said is true, then you have invested 14,54,000. (add all your risks and tax).

And the returns are 2310000 which means returns claimed less risk is 856000.

Please understand that I am not agreeing to what you are telling. But only deducting your risks from returns as you have posted. I do not believe such crackpot calculations even if given by God. My only thrust is with all your bluffs, you were not able to reach 10 lakh even theoretically.

1. I would like to know who is that bookie, who gives you at evens on
a 90ps horse and at evens on a 1.00 horse also. (see items 1 & 2).

2. Who is that bookie who takes 40k tax on a 4 lakh risk & the same 40k tax on
6 lakh risk. (see items 3 & 4).

And now let me go to your first instalment of profit claims.

Your risks & returns for the 1st 6 horses are:

2200. 2/1. 3000. Madam Sulthana
2000. 95ps 4000. Free style

Thereafter your risks have taken a quantum jump. 10,400; 16,800; 30,400 & 99,000. Profits are 4k, 8k, 16k, 32k.

Your 7th & 8th bets are 1,66,400 & 2,33,000.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS AFTER YOUR 6TH BET, THERE IS NO WAY YOU COULD HAVE RISKED 166400 AND 233000 on your 7th bet.

Tennessee, Rain dance & Ice gate. All bombay races. Race timings 1445, 1515 & 1715. Date 26/12/2015.

Thereafter how can you bet 166400 & 230000? Kolkata races Desert fox race 1300 & Duke of Earl 1600 on the same date 26/12/2015. That means in both cases the races were over much earlier to Ice gate race! The only explanation is bookies accepted your bets after the races.

You frequently demand what the contribution to the racing public from my side? Thank God! I require no phd in racing!

@ Gavin,
I appreciate your logical response as well as the concern , which is rarely seen on these sites and the 2 angles you have cited. You have said that I must give the calculations to silence them. I must say that whenever I have claimed, I’ve always given detailed calculations – which I’ll append below. I declared in December 2015 in response to my article about false favourites , that I’ll give more than 10 ‘consecutive’ losers(false favourites) and i did give correctly 12 losers consecutively between 25/12/15 and 3/1/16 covering Mumbai, Bangalore and other racing centers. The details are still available on various threads of this site. Later on I gave calculations – how I made my million ( appended below) and used it for my 40 days trip to USA during June- July’16. My passport entries can prove it (!).
NOW READ THIS:
chanakya said ... On : 1/8/2016 9:52:43 AM
@Raghavan,
Your 7/1: 7.17AM and other postings...
You have been too persistent and it will be improper if I continue ignoring your points.
Here are rest of the calculations .
Till 7th or 8th win it was touch and go affair and I was not very serious but after making a net profit of Rs. !,00,000 (1,28,000 -25600tax – 2000 initial investment), I developed ‘cold feet’ and thought of backing off. But due to an old technique learned during ‘professional training’ of taking ‘calculated risk without hurting self’ I decided to change my betting strategy.
Now ,I will not risk my money and use only the ‘win’ money with little addition ,if required.
There fore, on 9th. bet PollPromise(9/10) I invested 1,32,000(1,20,000 +12000tax) at even and received 2,40,000(2,40,000 = 1,20,000 refund of investment+ 1,20,000 win amount)
On 10th bet E Elegance (even) invested 2,42,000(including 22,000 tax on investment of 2,20,000) and got back – 4,40,000(2,20,000+2,20,000=4,40,000)
On 11th bet HapticStar (18/10) the investment was 4,40,000 and the return was 4,00,000 +2,30,000(profit) =6,30,000.
Last, i.e., 12th bet on Angelic Aria(3/2) was Rs. 6,40,000 at 16/10 and the return was 10,00,000(6,00,000 investment (6.4L -0.4L tax= 6.0 L net return+ 4,00,000 profit)
I hope it clears your doubt.

Isn’t it strange that after this reply addressed to an individual( him) he keeps on asking again and again the same question ! I have replied to his queries many times , and told him to read my calculations given on my thread. Everytime he or somebody else questions the veracity of my claims which have been already given earlier should I repeat it . Please tell me how many times I should do it?

Similarly I claimed to win more than 1lakh on Invitation day which was also disbelieved and ridicule till a common friend, a gentleman confirmed my claim to shut them up. Later on I posted that I’ll play first 3 races individually and a roll on them and a double from 4th. to 5th. race( details available on threads). Any intelligent, experienced and calculated risk taking punter, who has perfected a good system and believes on it ; will not run away ‘after making a kill’ and that is what I did. A real loss of 8000(+tax) or a notional loss of more than 20,000+ (winnings) or a windfall of 3lakh+ were the options available to me and I’ve to choose one.
I took the risk and I made it.


@STV,
I am not quitting racing – which keeps me busy and pays me for my efforts and leisure time. I’m only stopping writing on various websites-because more than 5or 6 of my postings have been blocked by these sites during last fortnight, which has never been done during last 15 years ...
Your 6/9/17 11.24AM.
If you consider that telling again and again, an insistent questioner to refer my earlier reply is a contempt , then be it. From 6/1/17 to 6/6/17 how many times anyone can keeps asking – without referring to earlier replies- same question/(s), whose answer is given earlier...
EXAMPLE is there, given above in a reply to Gavin...

Right Mr STV Chennai. I had never any kind of displeasure about your postings. In fact, I only disagreed with your suggestion that that I should have stopped after two or three questions.

Best wishes.

Raghavan,
I agree with your stand that if a reply from someone to a pertinent question is loaded with contempt,it has to be dealt with in an appropriate manner.
I agree that I started writing in 'good bye' post only with the impression that an elderly person was feeling hurt.I have later made it clear that,since he refuted any such suggestion from me,I did not have anything more to write.
You would have noted that went to the extent of advising him to avoid certain attitude.
Perhaps you are now reacting to my comment,that the claims by Chanakya could well have been left uncontested.That of course is a matter of individual wish and I have not exactly said your seeking of clarifications was wrong.It was at best or worst it was a thought that ran through the mind.
Think that makes the intentions behind my remarks clear.

Rksh

You have said 'Came to know about ur health... Felt extremely depressed.. May you recover soon and be happy and lead peaceful life in these last days...
From all your wellwishers, I wish you speedy recovery sir..'

I am concerned and I guess some others will also be. What is ailing Chanakya?

@STV Chennai,

I ask a question to a horsetalk member. If he replies, well & good. If he does not reply, then also well & good.

So I asked Chanakya some clarification/s. Had he replied, matter would have been closed. Matter would have been closed had he not replied either. But there was only some unwarranted counter questions. And the tone and tenor in his responses was not at all expected from a person who has rich academic and career success and has so much command on the racing subject.

Well. To my memory, I do not think I have indulged in any kind of personal abuse. If there is some slip from my side and had spoken anything uncivil or dirty things, then no 'ifs' & 'buts'. I straightaway apologise. Even when he choose to address me in inappropriate words, my standard response was 'not accepted, returned to sender'.

So this is the equation. I asked a question and leave it to the discretion of Chanakya to either reply or ignore. But, if his response was loaded with contempt without answering my question, then I just repeat my question and return all other unaccepted line to the sender.

He wants to quit writing. It is his decision. But see his parting words. After he leaves this site "the others will run the show by hook or crook".

So, for all these years he was interacting with 'others' like me who were running the show by hook or crook!

There may be people who show supreme indifference to his rantings. I am not one. I think, I am speaking regularly in this site for the past 7 years. So, if my writings still show some immaturity and lack of wisdom, so be it. It took 15 years for the mighty Chanakya to understand that whatever he writes is a total waste of time and say good bye. A lesser man like me also is entitled to have another 8 years before attaining enlightenment and stop postings.

Got it steve!
That was his purpose all the time.why blame readers here.

@Chanakya

Sir.. We will surely miss your scholarly articles and guidance in future... U are always a rare example to us being a successful punter... Even Raghavan sir is right that success rate ( winning rate) is par low here in racing... But still u managed to be a winner.. both of the game and our hearts....
Came to know about ur health... Felt extremely depressed.. May you recover soon and be happy and lead peaceful life in these last days...
From all your wellwishers, I wish you speedy recovery sir..

@Chanakya,

After 15 years of writing in this & other site, you realised that it is waste of time. Right.

I never claimed that I am descendant or incarnation of Harishchandra or Sree ramachandra. I know my limitations. I am just a punter. And I am happy at what I am. I am in good company of one lakh strong crowd.

All I asked is give the calculations. Just 12 lines. Not at all an impossible task for a person who has 15 years of writing on horse-racing behind him. The very fact that you have evaded answering that is eloquent proof that your million gain claim is nothing but bundlebaaz.

You have your quota of admirers. And critics. I am neither. I just made a rough calculation and saw that your million gain is outright impossible. Hence the repeated queries to you.

I do not know what to make of your claim of three lakh plus gain. I am having my own doubts. Because of the glaring inconsistency. First you said a three horse roll and a double. Then that was modified to a 4 horse roll. Then it was further upgraded to a 5 horse roll. Then again a supplementary claim. That apart from your roll bets, there were individual bets also!

If you want only some greetings and congratulations for each and every of your profit claim, then you are certainly expecting that in a wrong place.

In this site there are many doubting Thomases. And, I am one among them. For that I need not be a descedant od Harishchandra. My 'punter' tag is much more than the minimum qualification required to put such questions.

No one will believe that when other bookies were busy in closing the shop on that day, that particular bookie was sheepishly had kept his stall open, quoted odds on Undisputed and accepted your bet. And no one will believe that the bookies voluntarily part with higher amount than what their contracted liability is. When the only serious contender to SOH is withdrawn in a 4 horse race and the odds quoted on other two runners was in 20s & 30s, there is no indication in your bland statement that 2000 roll on SOH (16/10), Math (65ps) & Oracle (1.50) gave you 20,250 profit. No bookie will pay the contracted amount when a firm 2nd fav is withdrawn. He is entitled to discount as per rules!

It is these inconsistencies and contradictions in your post that I have exposed. You win 3 lakhs or one million. Certainly I will extend my best wishes. But you should not expect that we horsetalk members should simply gloss over all such doubts and only indulge in "Jai Ho Chanakya". As I said earlier anyone with a 'punter' tag (or for that matter even without a punter tag) can point out his doubts. It is not necessary that one should be waris of Harishchandra to put such questions.

In racing no one is a winner. If you win 50k this month, then you will cheerfully donate the entire bundle next month. No need to go to Antarcitca or South Africa to verify this statement from me. You yourself had admitted the loss of whatever you gained in one day at Bangalore; that too in lightening speed. Overcoming all the in built frauds, bookies cunningness & owners/jockeys/trainers' dirty tricks, if you still have won then you are a hero to me. But first prove that whatever you said is not some cock and bull story. I will be right there cheering you.

You said no more postings. That is what the heading of the lead post indicate. My first thought was that your decision is on account of your advanced age. But, even after that you have kept on continuing in what you are at best. That is questioning what my contribution is. You claim that you have written scholarly essays for the past 15 years. Good. Make out a compendium and see whether there are any takers. But, not writing such essays is not at all a disqualification to point out the glaring mistakes by fellow members. So many people are interacting in this site. No one is making claims of lakhs and millions profit. And when any one make one such claim, he also should have the courtesy to answer some simple questions. But, I am seeing only badmouthing from your side. What you mean by "these men will run the show by hook or crook". And what is this admission from you that once you vacate, people will forget you. If people had any learnt anything from your big essays, then they will surely remember you. Even now I remember a veteran horsetalk member who is no more. Not only me. Many others too!

Chanakya,
I had a distinct feeling that your decision to quit arose of hurt feelings.I took the opportunity to point out there could well be a few words and statements from your side that could have given rise to all that.My advise [if it could be called that]did not arise out of any "holier than though"attitude on my part.My only intention was to assuage your feelings in case they were hurt.
Now that you have clarified that it is not so,I feel happier and leave the decision to quit to yourself.

Raghavan,
Yes,my reference was to you in the context of citing the discussions\debates that took place under the relevant post.Most of us know that you have no 'dushmani'against anyone.It is but natural that certain tall claims of winnings at Races to get questioned and proof or details asked for.That said,once they were not coming forward,it is best to leave the matter where it stood instead of carrying it to personal levels.The members of H.T.are persons with practical experiences and,may I add,sufferings in Races and they would be judging the merits of claims by themselves.
With these few words, I would like to conclude for the moment.

I will continue only on my blog, nowhere else...

@ Chanakya

I am looking at your post broadly from two angels. One and the more important one is your feeling of dejection arising out of your experience here about readers not being willing to learn about racing nuances in spite of your efforts. The second one is about a tug of war about your making a huge money with certain bets. The second one is very very easy to tackle – just give the calculations the opposition has been clamoring for and it will be silenced once and for all. It is the first angle that I find interesting and important and my perspective is as follows.

Irrespective of the merits or demerits of your articles on various subjects / issues, the problem is that there is nothing such as a system of accreditation as far racing nuances are concerned. What you say or feel may be totally contradictory to what someone else may feel, however correct your contention or conclusion may be. There is no progression in terms of pre-school, primary, secondary, SSC, HSC, graduation, post graduation and doctorate. Various punters are at different stages of their racing journey without even knowing which stage they are in and it is but natural in the absence of an accreditation system. Let’s say you try to bring out and explain a nuance at the post graduate or doctorate level, then you are bound to get diverse responses from a reader who say is at the SSC level and someone who is at the graduate level simply because the SSC level guy just may not be able to understand what you are saying. Just imagine how a guy at the primary school level will be all at sea. So if he is a bit over smart, what does he do? Try to ridicule your observation. You just can’t make him understand by any amount of logic not because of the fault of the logic but simply because of his lack of ability to grasp. So, in such a case it becomes like banging your head against a brick wall. This is something that simply can’t be avoided. Any further efforts at detailed explanation will prove counterproductive. From this point of view, I tend to agree with your decision of bidding good bye. At the same time, it is important to keep an open mind without being rigid about our understanding of the game and try to accept views based on supporting logic with open arms even if they may prove us wrong.

I aint a regular here. Still i have few observations Chanakya ji

No doubt ur articles are good and scholarly. But the aim of the article is not merely to enlighten the 'illiterates but to garner accolades for self and that's where the problems start. If someone disagreed ur views u got personal with the said writer instead of clarifying the doubt or reasonably counteracting the opponent. Meanwhile u got the taste or ur own medicine.
Please don't take it as criticism, these r the observations on my side. I believe in the saying, what u give is what u get.
Little bit of self introspection and toning down will get u going and HT people will welcome u with open arms. Guaranteed.
Respect is earned not demanded.

All the best !!

@STV Chennai,


"Controversies between you and another active member on HT".

I think you are referring me. I do not have any 'dushmani' with anyone. I do not consider even the bookies as my enemy, even though I have written 100s of times their looting/cheating the club/Government with 10% bets. I only hope Chanakya and others will believe me when I said this.

Every punter is a loser. And, if you permit be to indulge in double speak, then a small correction. There may be around 100 or 200 winners also. A very very negligible fraction in a crowd of around one lakh.

So, you show me any person who says he won millions with start bet of 1000 or 2000, then I will show you a man who is a bluff master.

I know this much. If you are winner this month 50k, then 100% certain that you are a loser of more than 1,00,000 previous month.

I said previous month. The life time loss of a GOOD punter may much higher. Make your own guess as to what could be the life time loss of a BAD PUNTER.

And, the sad part is even this 50k that you won today actually qualifies for 'win' tag only if you spend it. (say tv, fridge or a modest family function in your home). Else the chances of that 50k also going back to the bookies gunny bag or tote window is as certain as Sun rising in the East.

It is with this certainty that I questioned his claim of making millions from a start bet of 1k or 2k. No reply. Only stonewall tactics. Badmouthing with expectation that I will be scared and stay silent. Really can not understand his mindset. He should have at least this much understanding. If Raghavan is scared and preferred to remain silent, then some Lava or Kusha will be posting their dissent notes.

He should also have learnt this much. The only way to avoid making himself a laughing stock is to give his risks and returns horsewise to prove that the win claim is at least theoretically possible. The least I expect is arithmetically accuracy.

So Chanakya has decided to stop further posting. Yes. It is his decision. We agree that after a man crosses a certain age, his decision should be welcomed. And he should not be forced to take back his decision.

STV Chennai,
I had/have no inability which made me decide to stop interacting further. The realisation that it is futile and waste of time and effort to make race-goers understand the nuances of racing has come a bit late.
I start a topic on pedigree, they start on saying that my arithmetic is wrong!
I claim that I’ve won more than a lakh by betting on only 3 winner, they question and disbelieve till a gentleman- known to them , confirms that he has seen me betting on those runners! All of them fall silent. Why?
I give 5 straight winners and claim that I’ll bet on them and claim that I have won 3lakhs + , they say it is not possible ... are they the only descendents of Harishchandra???

You say that I have contributed something for the betterment of Indian racing. What contribution, that/ these man/men have done to improve the knowledge of an ordinary punter except verbose writing – which carries no ‘informative’ value...

I don’t have to feel at ease. I’m at ease...
Sooner than later people will forget me , I don’t care about it. ‘ These’ men will run the show by hook or crook on these sites...
Watch and see...

Chanakya,
I do not know if you are bidding good bye out of inability or reluctance to enlighten others on the "intricacies of this treacherous game".Taking for granted that that your posts\articles were of great utility to race goers,you state that you "cannot continue doing the same 'FOREVER'.
The Approach to racing analysis and pursuit varies amongst punters.From the one who just enters the race course without any preparation to one who had done a lot of research and home work,it has many types in between.I would say no segment can claim to have benefited more by way of winning by means of their approach.There is no question of categorising as intellectuals and illiterates.In the prime of my racing days,i used to go by auto rickshaws and quite a few times the driver has enlightened me with a point or two why my selection will not win and in fact gone to the extent of naming correctly the winner in a particular race.Some of them had their own rapid h.c.pping methods while some others a different way of selections.They were in no way inferior in their grasp of matters to any one else who entered and participated.
By these statements of fact,I do not undermine the necessity for in depth analysis or scholarly studies.Some of them are quite useful to the ardent analysts of the game.The publications of the end results of such painstaking work might result in some benefits and pointers being made available to racegoers who do homework.Say for instance your own scrutiny of the effects of PNR.Other thesis on matters such as Pedigree have only theoretical interest;the regular race goer,even those with a substantial level of knowledge ,would not wish to sit on these factors in day to day racing analysis.IN fact one cannot do that, but at best, only have a cursory glance into the pedigree factor and perhaps a deeper look wherever required.
Much as I appreciate your time consuming and scholarly analysis,I have tried to point out the amount of their significance to a daily or normal race goer.
Now coming to the other side of my view,my own feeling is that you feel somewhat offended by some remarks in the discussions under some of your posts.Being of your age group,I do feel sorry for the pain that you should have felt.At the same time,I do feel that one must not give room for such comments.Members would not have forgotten the differences and controversies between you and another active member of HT sometime back.I along with many others felt that the fault lay more on your side especially in your preambles to your posts.
I have pointed out all these with a view to make you feel at easy in HT by avoiding such matters as I have dared to point out and reconsider your decision to quit.
regards,
STV
Chennai.