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By Godzilla | 15-Feb-2018
Guys
If there is a Cup Race, involving a mile distance, back HE and Trevor. It should have won today by a distance but the connections have not backed it. Even it can travel a distance of 2000 mtrs without any problem.
If there is a Cup Race, involving a mile distance, back HE and Trevor. It should have won today by a distance but the connections have not backed it. Even it can travel a distance of 2000 mtrs without any problem.
51 Replies
Crk said ...
21-Feb-2018
Pedigree wise, Nyssa has an edge, points across the board,DI and CD ideal for 2000m,seems to be an horse in form,prepared well through runs. Ready to strike at playable odds.
Crk said ...
21-Feb-2018
@ GG,
Thanks for the update.Yes, the eyes too are important.By the way, it is CRK ,not CTR !
Thanks for the update.Yes, the eyes too are important.By the way, it is CRK ,not CTR !
Golden Girl said ...
21-Feb-2018
@CTR-You said,"The genes or inherited traits of an individual is not just from the parents,it is also from the grand parents and beyond." I would like to add that the inherited traits or genes are carried up to the 12th generation and in the 12th generation it remains only in the eyes.
Indian_turf_record said ...
21-Feb-2018
@ CRK
It was my fault. I meant "less speed" but actually wrote "more speed".
Thanks for the opportunity to correct myself.
@ Manish
I have subsequently analysed the point made by you and it holds good for only one lower rated winner, that is Aggregated. Otherwise, the lower rated winner and top rated horse have had comparable number of starts.
Search for right reasons goes on.
It was my fault. I meant "less speed" but actually wrote "more speed".
Thanks for the opportunity to correct myself.
@ Manish
I have subsequently analysed the point made by you and it holds good for only one lower rated winner, that is Aggregated. Otherwise, the lower rated winner and top rated horse have had comparable number of starts.
Search for right reasons goes on.
Crk said ...
20-Feb-2018
ITR,
Further to my post, I would like to add...
Regarding Alandair's,I misinterpreted your statement as a question to us and hence my reply to it.
Thanks.
Further to my post, I would like to add...
Regarding Alandair's,I misinterpreted your statement as a question to us and hence my reply to it.
Thanks.
Crk said ...
20-Feb-2018
@ ITR,
Thanks.You have asked about Alandair's DI and CD being higher than his parents.Here is my 2 cents ..
The genes or the inherited traits of an individual is not just from the parents,it is also from the grand parents and beyond.And that is where the genealogy of the horse becomes a factor in breeding of thoroughbreds.
Thanks once again .
Thanks.You have asked about Alandair's DI and CD being higher than his parents.Here is my 2 cents ..
The genes or the inherited traits of an individual is not just from the parents,it is also from the grand parents and beyond.And that is where the genealogy of the horse becomes a factor in breeding of thoroughbreds.
Thanks once again .
Indian_turf_record said ...
20-Feb-2018
@ Manish
Your reason that some of the higher rated horses may have run more times to earn that rating is very plausible. Thank you.
CRK/Larry
Take case of Alaindair:-
Alaindair (16) DI 1.91 CD 0.56
Multi (28) 1.43 0.25
Gods G (20) 1.35 0.35
The point to note here is that despite having less overall points, Alaindair's DI as well as CD is higher than both his parents showing more speed.
I would still request Larry to specify (quantify) what he means by "average points". Something like 12 or less overall points and DI around x.xx and Cd around x.xx.
One thing that strikes me is that if the study is limited to successful stallions, they will in most cases be covering good mares and so a mare with "average numbers" will be difficult to find.
Some time back, I happened to find that Multidimensional's strike rate of Classic winners from mares containing Razeen in their pedigrees was around 12 %. A friend of mine told me that my finding was incomplete. He insisted that I work Multi's strike rate from all mares first. It turned out to be about 10 %. My friend told me that now I was in better position draw conclusions.
Most racing studies use statistics to draw conclusions but as my friend told told me, most studies ignore "opportunity" factor.
Some years ago, an article showed that 43 % of top 50 Timeform rated horses were bred on particular breeding pattern. The "opportunity" factor was missed out here. Luckily someone else carried out a study and showed that of 50 non-winners same year, 52 % were bred on same breeding pattern !
In racing, everything -- performance, pedigree, handicap, fitness and so on -- counts whether one believes or not. Sometimes, one factor overrides other.
These are just some stray thoughts but still request Larry to specify "average numbers".
Your reason that some of the higher rated horses may have run more times to earn that rating is very plausible. Thank you.
CRK/Larry
Take case of Alaindair:-
Alaindair (16) DI 1.91 CD 0.56
Multi (28) 1.43 0.25
Gods G (20) 1.35 0.35
The point to note here is that despite having less overall points, Alaindair's DI as well as CD is higher than both his parents showing more speed.
I would still request Larry to specify (quantify) what he means by "average points". Something like 12 or less overall points and DI around x.xx and Cd around x.xx.
One thing that strikes me is that if the study is limited to successful stallions, they will in most cases be covering good mares and so a mare with "average numbers" will be difficult to find.
Some time back, I happened to find that Multidimensional's strike rate of Classic winners from mares containing Razeen in their pedigrees was around 12 %. A friend of mine told me that my finding was incomplete. He insisted that I work Multi's strike rate from all mares first. It turned out to be about 10 %. My friend told me that now I was in better position draw conclusions.
Most racing studies use statistics to draw conclusions but as my friend told told me, most studies ignore "opportunity" factor.
Some years ago, an article showed that 43 % of top 50 Timeform rated horses were bred on particular breeding pattern. The "opportunity" factor was missed out here. Luckily someone else carried out a study and showed that of 50 non-winners same year, 52 % were bred on same breeding pattern !
In racing, everything -- performance, pedigree, handicap, fitness and so on -- counts whether one believes or not. Sometimes, one factor overrides other.
These are just some stray thoughts but still request Larry to specify "average numbers".
Golden Girl said ...
20-Feb-2018
Star Information had beaten Riquewhir by 7 long lengths in his previous start.It opened as half money favourite.All the renowned media tipsters including our own Indiarace.com selector(who is one of the best among others and winner of the champion Trophy for the Tipster almost every year had said that Star Information can not lose.After reading his selections(I always read his selections before making any comments about a race)I said Riquewhir can not lose to SI.Madagascar was running for the first time,so his potential was unknown.There was no way to judge it.
Larry said that SI can not lose today.If it loses my theory will go for a toss .Well,the theory has surely gone for a toss out of the window,as Riquewhir who lost to SI by 7 lengths,now beat him by 6 lengths,thus reversal of total 13 lengths.
All the Media tipsters had given Star Information unbeatable.Well the horse comes last in a three horse field,losing by 8 lengths to the winner.I went against their judgment and said it can not win.
Larry said that SI can not lose today.If it loses my theory will go for a toss .Well,the theory has surely gone for a toss out of the window,as Riquewhir who lost to SI by 7 lengths,now beat him by 6 lengths,thus reversal of total 13 lengths.
All the Media tipsters had given Star Information unbeatable.Well the horse comes last in a three horse field,losing by 8 lengths to the winner.I went against their judgment and said it can not win.
Manish said ...
20-Feb-2018
@ITR,
The question that you raised that why the higher rate horses did not win more classics... My take on this is as follows:
The very fact that they are highest rates does not necessary means that they are better than others. It might be that they have run more races than the others so they are higher rated than the sparingly race ones.
This could be one of the reason.
And secondly, I also feel that pedigree is over hyped (just to suit the breeders). It no doubt, has effect, but not to that extent as it is made to believe.
The question that you raised that why the higher rate horses did not win more classics... My take on this is as follows:
The very fact that they are highest rates does not necessary means that they are better than others. It might be that they have run more races than the others so they are higher rated than the sparingly race ones.
This could be one of the reason.
And secondly, I also feel that pedigree is over hyped (just to suit the breeders). It no doubt, has effect, but not to that extent as it is made to believe.
Crk said ...
19-Feb-2018
Larry,
Looking forward to your research on Multidimensional . If you are able to come to certain conclusions on this aspect,and if it shows the same results with other sires,that would be a real eye opener in the evaluation of pedigree. If ITR could join in this effort,that would be really great, considering his meticulous record keeping and racing wisdom.
Looking forward to your research on Multidimensional . If you are able to come to certain conclusions on this aspect,and if it shows the same results with other sires,that would be a real eye opener in the evaluation of pedigree. If ITR could join in this effort,that would be really great, considering his meticulous record keeping and racing wisdom.
Crk said ...
19-Feb-2018
GODZILLA,
In every racing center, there are punters who play short priced horses as they have come to believe that shorter the price, the more certainty their winning chances. No other factor of racing come into play. The bookies just love them. A few are here in this forum for whom decency and healthy interaction in a debate have no place.It is best to ignore them.
In every racing center, there are punters who play short priced horses as they have come to believe that shorter the price, the more certainty their winning chances. No other factor of racing come into play. The bookies just love them. A few are here in this forum for whom decency and healthy interaction in a debate have no place.It is best to ignore them.
Indian_turf_record said ...
19-Feb-2018
@ G.G.
Congratulations. Goshawk was a good selection. Hope you had a good day and that Destined Dynamite ("too good to lose today") and Riquewihr ("should make it one horse race") did not hurt you or your friend Raj-original too much.
Congratulations. Goshawk was a good selection. Hope you had a good day and that Destined Dynamite ("too good to lose today") and Riquewihr ("should make it one horse race") did not hurt you or your friend Raj-original too much.
Godzilla said ...
19-Feb-2018
Raj-Original
This is what Golden Girls choice in some other column:
Golden Girl said ... On : 2/18/2018 1:48:55 PM
Riquewihr should make it one horse race.
If I am you, I would have criticized her. Its Racing, some days you win other days you lose. Simply because you made money yesterday, you are too immature to make fun of those who write about Horse Racing and pedigree. Behave. Money is not everything. Decency matters.
Learn from ITR who says:
"I think aim of this forum should be to learn how to make good selections and not look for free tips."
This is what Golden Girls choice in some other column:
Golden Girl said ... On : 2/18/2018 1:48:55 PM
Riquewihr should make it one horse race.
If I am you, I would have criticized her. Its Racing, some days you win other days you lose. Simply because you made money yesterday, you are too immature to make fun of those who write about Horse Racing and pedigree. Behave. Money is not everything. Decency matters.
Learn from ITR who says:
"I think aim of this forum should be to learn how to make good selections and not look for free tips."
Godzilla said ...
19-Feb-2018
Raj-Original
Pleased to know you have played huge money on Goshawk and made money. Keep it up. BIG CONGRATULATIONS FROM MY SIDE.
Yes as you say Pedigrees hypers are good for nothing. I will follow your tips in future and see whether I could make money and CONTINUE THE WINNING STREAK.
Please go ahead and tip and I will play your tips and let you know the money I made in Races honestly and sincerely.
Pleased to know you have played huge money on Goshawk and made money. Keep it up. BIG CONGRATULATIONS FROM MY SIDE.
Yes as you say Pedigrees hypers are good for nothing. I will follow your tips in future and see whether I could make money and CONTINUE THE WINNING STREAK.
Please go ahead and tip and I will play your tips and let you know the money I made in Races honestly and sincerely.
Raj-original said ...
18-Feb-2018
GG
Congrates for nailing Goshawk and double congtates for nailing pedigree hypers.
I played huge on it as I have been following it for quit some time.
Your posting also helped me and boosted my confidence.
Txs
Congrates for nailing Goshawk and double congtates for nailing pedigree hypers.
I played huge on it as I have been following it for quit some time.
Your posting also helped me and boosted my confidence.
Txs
Indian_turf_record said ...
18-Feb-2018
@ G.G.
Thank you very much for your kind reply and the tip of Goshawk. All the best with your choice.
I was not looking for a tip. I was thinking you might be able to explain why in 20 Classics 12 top rated horses lost and only 8 won.
I think aim of this forum should be to learn how to make good selections and not look for free tips.
Thank you very much for your kind reply and the tip of Goshawk. All the best with your choice.
I was not looking for a tip. I was thinking you might be able to explain why in 20 Classics 12 top rated horses lost and only 8 won.
I think aim of this forum should be to learn how to make good selections and not look for free tips.
Golden Girl said ...
18-Feb-2018
@ Indian -Turf-Record,
Today in the sixth race in Mumbai I like Goshawk for win.Based on its past performance,present condition and all other parameters taking into consideration,it should not lose in this set.Let us see how he performs on this extended distance(going for the first time)today.
P.S.I do not call anybody as sir or madam,as we are all friends here.I address only S.K.Sagar as Sagarji as he is our seniormost gentleman here.You may address me simply as G.G. like everybody else.
Today in the sixth race in Mumbai I like Goshawk for win.Based on its past performance,present condition and all other parameters taking into consideration,it should not lose in this set.Let us see how he performs on this extended distance(going for the first time)today.
P.S.I do not call anybody as sir or madam,as we are all friends here.I address only S.K.Sagar as Sagarji as he is our seniormost gentleman here.You may address me simply as G.G. like everybody else.
Indian_turf_record said ...
17-Feb-2018
@ Golden Girl
Please forgive me for not knowing whether to address you as Sir or Madam. Could you please clarify ?
In one of your postings you have ended by saying "So it is performance that counts to pick a winner".
You are absolutely right. There are many ways to judge past performance. One tool easily available to all and which does not involve long self-study is ratings. Of course, ratings are assessment of one man and someone else may have a better system of assessments.
In Classics, all horses carry equal weights so logically highest rated horse must win more often than not. I keep records and from my records I have compiled a chart of this year's Classics which is given below.
Race Highest Rated Won/Lost Rs. 10 on Tote
I1 Ruffina Lost - 10
I2 Castlebridge Won + 2
IO Manifold Won + 8
ID PF/LIL Lost - 10
G1 Lady in Lace Won nil
G2 Prevalent Force WON nil
GO Selfie Star Lost - 10
GD Shaman Lost - 10
B1 Windsor Forest Won + 4
B2 Tutankhamun Lost - 10
BO Windsor Forest Lost - 10
BD Prevalent Force Lost -10
C1 Sana Won + 2
C2 Hartnell Lost - 10
CO Sana Won + 2
CD Sana Lost - 10
SI1 Daffodil/RS Lost -10
SI2 Cavallo Voce Lost -10
SIO Star Profile Lost - 10
SID Prevalent Force Won + 6
I agree that there may be errors in my assumptions. Please feel free to point them out. I agree that there are better systems to asses performance. Please explain any one system and show what results it gives to above races. If you that you will prove your point and punters will be benefitted.
Please forgive me for not knowing whether to address you as Sir or Madam. Could you please clarify ?
In one of your postings you have ended by saying "So it is performance that counts to pick a winner".
You are absolutely right. There are many ways to judge past performance. One tool easily available to all and which does not involve long self-study is ratings. Of course, ratings are assessment of one man and someone else may have a better system of assessments.
In Classics, all horses carry equal weights so logically highest rated horse must win more often than not. I keep records and from my records I have compiled a chart of this year's Classics which is given below.
Race Highest Rated Won/Lost Rs. 10 on Tote
I1 Ruffina Lost - 10
I2 Castlebridge Won + 2
IO Manifold Won + 8
ID PF/LIL Lost - 10
G1 Lady in Lace Won nil
G2 Prevalent Force WON nil
GO Selfie Star Lost - 10
GD Shaman Lost - 10
B1 Windsor Forest Won + 4
B2 Tutankhamun Lost - 10
BO Windsor Forest Lost - 10
BD Prevalent Force Lost -10
C1 Sana Won + 2
C2 Hartnell Lost - 10
CO Sana Won + 2
CD Sana Lost - 10
SI1 Daffodil/RS Lost -10
SI2 Cavallo Voce Lost -10
SIO Star Profile Lost - 10
SID Prevalent Force Won + 6
I agree that there may be errors in my assumptions. Please feel free to point them out. I agree that there are better systems to asses performance. Please explain any one system and show what results it gives to above races. If you that you will prove your point and punters will be benefitted.
Larry said ...
17-Feb-2018
@Indian_Turf_Record
As regards my query about Multidimensional, it's not just MD that my query is confined to. The reason I asked is because he's one of the more illustrious sire these days, and it becomes easy to do some research on what I'm actually trying to get at.
Actually I wanted to know if any colt with MD, or for that matter any other illustrious sire has excelled in spite of the dam not throwing up really good numbers, be it for sprint, or longer distance, because I've seen many MD progenies not really being up to the mark, and most of the times I find that it's a colt with not too impressive numbers on the dam side, however, if it's a filly, even if the dam shows not too impressive numbers, the results are positive, and this lends credence to my research that it's only a filly that can receive qualities (DNA wise) from the sire, not a colt.
Time permitting, I intend to check on the MD progenies to research further on this.
As regards my query about Multidimensional, it's not just MD that my query is confined to. The reason I asked is because he's one of the more illustrious sire these days, and it becomes easy to do some research on what I'm actually trying to get at.
Actually I wanted to know if any colt with MD, or for that matter any other illustrious sire has excelled in spite of the dam not throwing up really good numbers, be it for sprint, or longer distance, because I've seen many MD progenies not really being up to the mark, and most of the times I find that it's a colt with not too impressive numbers on the dam side, however, if it's a filly, even if the dam shows not too impressive numbers, the results are positive, and this lends credence to my research that it's only a filly that can receive qualities (DNA wise) from the sire, not a colt.
Time permitting, I intend to check on the MD progenies to research further on this.
Godzilla said ...
17-Feb-2018
Krish...Mumbai
I was wondering how could you be so harsh with me ? Anyway, thanks for getting in touch with me. Like Raj original, you are Krish original.
Yes. I was in US for nearly 8 months. My kids are in top positions. US life is class. Also the Indians over US live in style. Lot of greenery everywhere. The residences are marvellous. Malls too good. Everywhere Indian Resturants and Temples. One will not miss India over there. Its a second home for Indians. Every Indian is thriving and live in posh bungalows with garden, swimming pool attached, and a fleet of BMW, Benz, Audi, Toyoto etc.. Thats the reason Indians are not returning.
You are kidding..........me having a meeting with the President of US. Trump hails from business circle and at times he forgets he is US President and behaves like a typical American business man. But he has given excellent education to his sons and daughters and brought them up nicely.
Take care.
I was wondering how could you be so harsh with me ? Anyway, thanks for getting in touch with me. Like Raj original, you are Krish original.
Yes. I was in US for nearly 8 months. My kids are in top positions. US life is class. Also the Indians over US live in style. Lot of greenery everywhere. The residences are marvellous. Malls too good. Everywhere Indian Resturants and Temples. One will not miss India over there. Its a second home for Indians. Every Indian is thriving and live in posh bungalows with garden, swimming pool attached, and a fleet of BMW, Benz, Audi, Toyoto etc.. Thats the reason Indians are not returning.
You are kidding..........me having a meeting with the President of US. Trump hails from business circle and at times he forgets he is US President and behaves like a typical American business man. But he has given excellent education to his sons and daughters and brought them up nicely.
Take care.
Krish...mumbai said ...
17-Feb-2018
Godzy Sir I stopped writing here long long back....you may in some confusion with this newborn...its not me...and Vijay Sir hope he is fine...no contacts couple of years...btw heard that you had a last meeting with Sir Donald Trump pertaining to buy an Island in joint venture...has the deal finalised, if so kindly enlighten us...God bless you Sir...
Crk said ...
17-Feb-2018
80? or more classic races are won by well bred horses.It is just co_incidental(?)that they have good dosage numbers to match their performances over the years in practically every country where racing is conducted.
And like every instance, there are exceptions, which does not make it a rule.
When someone gives certain inputs in some aspects of racing which you may have different views,why resort to ridicule in expressing your opinion ?
And like every instance, there are exceptions, which does not make it a rule.
When someone gives certain inputs in some aspects of racing which you may have different views,why resort to ridicule in expressing your opinion ?
Golden Girl said ...
17-Feb-2018
Dear Godzila,
I never said that pedigree is not important.I said it is one of the tools to find a champion,but still remains a guess work.It is not a perfect law made by nature that so and so combination will produce a champion.More horses of good Pedigree are winning because their numbers are more than the ordinary horses.These days owners are buying costlier horses,but are they performing for whatever worth they are.
In the first two runs of a maiden horse,the trainer can judge their potential.Honourable Eyes was given two runs,so it was tried in the third attempt at longer odds.Now as you say it will win next time,it may win but now it is exposed,will the bookies give long odds or make it first favourite?
Now take the case of Green Monkey--The worlds costliest horse sold in auction,because of its bloodlines(Forestry-Magical Masquerade),descendent of Northern Dancer and Secretariat.Green Monkey was sold in 2006 for $16 million.It was also the biggest flop horse of all times.It ran three races in its carrier and was always unplaced.Once he came fourth and earned $10240.All the trainers and pedigree experts have not been able to the explain for his miserable performance.
Regards.
I never said that pedigree is not important.I said it is one of the tools to find a champion,but still remains a guess work.It is not a perfect law made by nature that so and so combination will produce a champion.More horses of good Pedigree are winning because their numbers are more than the ordinary horses.These days owners are buying costlier horses,but are they performing for whatever worth they are.
In the first two runs of a maiden horse,the trainer can judge their potential.Honourable Eyes was given two runs,so it was tried in the third attempt at longer odds.Now as you say it will win next time,it may win but now it is exposed,will the bookies give long odds or make it first favourite?
Now take the case of Green Monkey--The worlds costliest horse sold in auction,because of its bloodlines(Forestry-Magical Masquerade),descendent of Northern Dancer and Secretariat.Green Monkey was sold in 2006 for $16 million.It was also the biggest flop horse of all times.It ran three races in its carrier and was always unplaced.Once he came fourth and earned $10240.All the trainers and pedigree experts have not been able to the explain for his miserable performance.
Regards.
Indian_turf_record said ...
17-Feb-2018
@ Kumar_blore
Nice to know that you have enjoyed the exchanges.
@ Larry
In your last posting you have mentioned "... a Multidimensional colt with average numbers on the Dam side doing well ..." Could you please be more specific what you mean by 'average numbers' ? Once I know that and should I come across such a horse I will certainly inform you.
Nice to know that you have enjoyed the exchanges.
@ Larry
In your last posting you have mentioned "... a Multidimensional colt with average numbers on the Dam side doing well ..." Could you please be more specific what you mean by 'average numbers' ? Once I know that and should I come across such a horse I will certainly inform you.
Kumar_blore said ...
17-Feb-2018
@Indian_Turf_Record
Certainly people like me are enjoying these lengthy writeups, please do continue the debate.....
And thanks to Godzilla & Larry for contributing to the topic,am sure if people like sun and other experienced writers join the debate it will be more fun.
Thanks again,cheers...
Certainly people like me are enjoying these lengthy writeups, please do continue the debate.....
And thanks to Godzilla & Larry for contributing to the topic,am sure if people like sun and other experienced writers join the debate it will be more fun.
Thanks again,cheers...
Godzilla said ...
17-Feb-2018
GG
One more addition:
After Sire Riyahi and Malvado
Razeen and Alnasr Alwasheek took over.
Pedigree has much to contribute in Racing.
One more addition:
After Sire Riyahi and Malvado
Razeen and Alnasr Alwasheek took over.
Pedigree has much to contribute in Racing.
Crk said ...
17-Feb-2018
I suppose the multi billion breeding industry days are numbered..After all, some experts here cannot be wrong considering their deep insight and knowledge about all aspects of racing !
Godzilla said ...
17-Feb-2018
Krish
In anger, you are not able to express your views properly. I suggest you be cool and then participate in the debate.
How is your mentor Vijay doing nowadays ?
In anger, you are not able to express your views properly. I suggest you be cool and then participate in the debate.
How is your mentor Vijay doing nowadays ?
Godzilla said ...
17-Feb-2018
Golden Girl
You have pointed out certain Horses without pedigree background
have won Indian Derby. I would like to throw more light on the same:
Yes Monitou won Indian Derby whose sire was GREY GATSON.
Subsequently, in the year 1981 Track Lightning, 1983 Nelston, 1984 Enterprising and 1985 Revelation have won Indian Derby, whose sire was also GREY GATSON.
It should now convince you that pedigree has also played important role in case of the performance ofthe above Horses.
From 1988 onwards Horses out of Sire Riyahi and Malvado took over.
1995 Elusive Pimpernal Sire Wattlefield - Right Step out of Illeus won Indian Derby.
You will agree sire Illeus is an out and out stayer and Aslam Khader you know, whathe is capable of.
However exceptions were Pyare Mia [Punjab-Neemah] 1975 and Squanderer [Valroso-Milkyway] 1977 which won Indian Derby.
Now Multidimensional is the rage.
You will certainly agree pedigree also plays an important part on the performance of horses.
Hope the above findings convince you.
Krish
-----
Talk about Indian Racing and not KB winners.
You have pointed out certain Horses without pedigree background
have won Indian Derby. I would like to throw more light on the same:
Yes Monitou won Indian Derby whose sire was GREY GATSON.
Subsequently, in the year 1981 Track Lightning, 1983 Nelston, 1984 Enterprising and 1985 Revelation have won Indian Derby, whose sire was also GREY GATSON.
It should now convince you that pedigree has also played important role in case of the performance ofthe above Horses.
From 1988 onwards Horses out of Sire Riyahi and Malvado took over.
1995 Elusive Pimpernal Sire Wattlefield - Right Step out of Illeus won Indian Derby.
You will agree sire Illeus is an out and out stayer and Aslam Khader you know, whathe is capable of.
However exceptions were Pyare Mia [Punjab-Neemah] 1975 and Squanderer [Valroso-Milkyway] 1977 which won Indian Derby.
Now Multidimensional is the rage.
You will certainly agree pedigree also plays an important part on the performance of horses.
Hope the above findings convince you.
Krish
-----
Talk about Indian Racing and not KB winners.
Krish said ...
17-Feb-2018
@ godzilla,
To update your knowledge, horse owners with bag full of money sitting in the auction ring to pick the horse with good pedigree hoping that the horse will be the future derby winner. Pedigree of horse limited to purchase of horse.
To update your knowledge, horse owners with bag full of money sitting in the auction ring to pick the horse with good pedigree hoping that the horse will be the future derby winner. Pedigree of horse limited to purchase of horse.
Krish said ...
17-Feb-2018
@ godzilla
I guess you need classroom teaching/training. Lets consider KENTUCKY DERBY for example.
No of horses take part in derby: 20
Excellent pedigreed horses: 16
Winner: 1
You talk about pedigree of one horse winner. We including Raj-Original talk about 15 excellent pedigreed horse failed to win the derby. Now you yourself decide to consider pedigree of horse to pick the winner in the future or not?
Pedigree, Dosage index, center of distribution are all tools to consume your brain power.
Have great race days in the future.
I guess you need classroom teaching/training. Lets consider KENTUCKY DERBY for example.
No of horses take part in derby: 20
Excellent pedigreed horses: 16
Winner: 1
You talk about pedigree of one horse winner. We including Raj-Original talk about 15 excellent pedigreed horse failed to win the derby. Now you yourself decide to consider pedigree of horse to pick the winner in the future or not?
Pedigree, Dosage index, center of distribution are all tools to consume your brain power.
Have great race days in the future.
Indian_turf_record said ...
16-Feb-2018
@ Larry
Thank you for your detailed replies. I do not wish to continue with long postings because it is of no interest to majority of readers here. Also protracted postings then tend to take an aspect personal justification.
All I can say is that while Dr. Steve Roman's system has many advantages, there are several flaws also. And when no one can give me satisfactory answer as to why two times winner of Sprinter's Cup, Gr.1 (Attila) and winner of Indian Turf Invitation Cup, Gr.1 (Moonlight Romance) have the same Dosage Index I do not count on the system.
To asses future staying distances of a horse I find the distances over which members of the family have won more useful and reliable.
Your Dist DI CD chart is incorrect. For start, if 5f = DI 4.02 and CD 0.81 then 6f cannot be = DI 4.26 and CD 0.87. Unless there is some typographical error. I suggest that you search the web and get correct figures.
Initially, it was said that horses with DI of 3.00 and over cannot win Kentucky Derby (2000 m). This was then changed to DI of 4.00 and over. When Real Quiet and Strike The gold won with higher DIs, new chefs-de-race were created to lower their DIs. That was for 'political' reasons and not based on statistical or scientific evidence. Hence my doubts about the system.
Most people who follow pedigrees believe that Danehill and Storm Cat have had breed shaping effect on Thoroughbred. Neither is classified as a chef-de-race. Another'political' decision ?
Thank you for your detailed replies. I do not wish to continue with long postings because it is of no interest to majority of readers here. Also protracted postings then tend to take an aspect personal justification.
All I can say is that while Dr. Steve Roman's system has many advantages, there are several flaws also. And when no one can give me satisfactory answer as to why two times winner of Sprinter's Cup, Gr.1 (Attila) and winner of Indian Turf Invitation Cup, Gr.1 (Moonlight Romance) have the same Dosage Index I do not count on the system.
To asses future staying distances of a horse I find the distances over which members of the family have won more useful and reliable.
Your Dist DI CD chart is incorrect. For start, if 5f = DI 4.02 and CD 0.81 then 6f cannot be = DI 4.26 and CD 0.87. Unless there is some typographical error. I suggest that you search the web and get correct figures.
Initially, it was said that horses with DI of 3.00 and over cannot win Kentucky Derby (2000 m). This was then changed to DI of 4.00 and over. When Real Quiet and Strike The gold won with higher DIs, new chefs-de-race were created to lower their DIs. That was for 'political' reasons and not based on statistical or scientific evidence. Hence my doubts about the system.
Most people who follow pedigrees believe that Danehill and Storm Cat have had breed shaping effect on Thoroughbred. Neither is classified as a chef-de-race. Another'political' decision ?
Professor said ...
16-Feb-2018
These days you have to take into the pedigree of the trainer and jockey too ,not to mention the owners
Pedigree of a horse is just one aspect ..You can give just 25% relevance to it....
When Trevor was sanctioned this horse after 2 ordinary runs it clearly indicated that it was on job.
Pedigree of a horse is just one aspect ..You can give just 25% relevance to it....
When Trevor was sanctioned this horse after 2 ordinary runs it clearly indicated that it was on job.
Larry said ...
16-Feb-2018
@Indian_Turf_Record said
Thank you for this information about Snowdrift.
For sure, the numbers are purely those of a sprinter, and at times such results surely baffles me.
The only thing that I can see in the figures for this one is the fact that it displays Dominant Classicity in his figures; DP = 7-2-9-0-0; (7+2=9). I don't know if you lend much credence to facts like Dominant Classicity and Points Across The Board (PATB), but I've noticed, ones displaying any of these qualities have a tendency to send the pedigree numbers for a toss, and perform at any distance, once again, Quasar is a perfect example.
On my earlier post, I addressed Godzy as regards Gloriosa winning the Calcutta Derby, and pointed out that since that win Gloriosa struggled to win any race over a longer distance, and subsequently was tried over 1400, which he did win. I notice the same pattern in case of Snowdrift. After winning the Calcutta Derby, he failed to win over longer distances, and then later, when switched over to 1400, he did win, and then subsequently won over 1600 and then over 2000.
These are just my observations, mind you, I'm not trying to put across that what I mentioned is right, but I just feel that these are one off instances.
Would really appreciate if you could share your findings if in the course of your research you do come across a Multidimensional colt with average numbers on the Dam side doing well, be it over a sprint, or over long distance.
Also, you mentioned "that CD of 0 to 1.00 corresponds to a racing aptitude between 8 furlongs and 11.5 furlongs". Well, all along, from the time I've been reading the pedigree figures, the chart that I've been following is the one below.
DIST DI CD
5 1/2 f 4.02 0.81
6 f 4.26 0.87
7 f 3.73 0.82
8 f 2.98 0.68
9 f 2.86 0.65
10 f 2.50 0.56
11 f 2.10 0.47
12 f 2.02 0.43
If I do remember well, it's a chart I picked up from the data pages of pedigreequery.com. Honestly speaking, I haven't come across many with CD figures of over 1.00, so could you please check if that bit of data was posted in error, or am I missing out on something here?
Thank you for this information about Snowdrift.
For sure, the numbers are purely those of a sprinter, and at times such results surely baffles me.
The only thing that I can see in the figures for this one is the fact that it displays Dominant Classicity in his figures; DP = 7-2-9-0-0; (7+2=9). I don't know if you lend much credence to facts like Dominant Classicity and Points Across The Board (PATB), but I've noticed, ones displaying any of these qualities have a tendency to send the pedigree numbers for a toss, and perform at any distance, once again, Quasar is a perfect example.
On my earlier post, I addressed Godzy as regards Gloriosa winning the Calcutta Derby, and pointed out that since that win Gloriosa struggled to win any race over a longer distance, and subsequently was tried over 1400, which he did win. I notice the same pattern in case of Snowdrift. After winning the Calcutta Derby, he failed to win over longer distances, and then later, when switched over to 1400, he did win, and then subsequently won over 1600 and then over 2000.
These are just my observations, mind you, I'm not trying to put across that what I mentioned is right, but I just feel that these are one off instances.
Would really appreciate if you could share your findings if in the course of your research you do come across a Multidimensional colt with average numbers on the Dam side doing well, be it over a sprint, or over long distance.
Also, you mentioned "that CD of 0 to 1.00 corresponds to a racing aptitude between 8 furlongs and 11.5 furlongs". Well, all along, from the time I've been reading the pedigree figures, the chart that I've been following is the one below.
DIST DI CD
5 1/2 f 4.02 0.81
6 f 4.26 0.87
7 f 3.73 0.82
8 f 2.98 0.68
9 f 2.86 0.65
10 f 2.50 0.56
11 f 2.10 0.47
12 f 2.02 0.43
If I do remember well, it's a chart I picked up from the data pages of pedigreequery.com. Honestly speaking, I haven't come across many with CD figures of over 1.00, so could you please check if that bit of data was posted in error, or am I missing out on something here?
Golden Girl said ...
16-Feb-2018
@ Raj Original,
You have hit the nail on head that only 10% of the high pedigree horses perform.I cent per cent agree with you.this is a marketing strategy by the breeders to sell their horses,nothing else. Man started breeding race horses with three Arab horses,in the beginning.Now all t horses all over the world are brothers,,sisters and cousins etc.There are thousands of race horses and naturally few of good pedigree shall win.This is only by chance and not a Universal Truth.If one can get by pedigree,then they would all be billionaires.Here we have few experts on Pedigree of the horses and we have seen there selections,and also seen there performance in HT PTR.Nothig more to add.
@ Godzilla,
You have asked for a statics of horses{without Quality Pedigree) winning some classic races.
Squanderer,Monitou,Commanche,Elusive Pimpenell were All Time Greats in Indian history of racing,who not one but all the Classics that came in their way.All had no Pedigree and all bought for peanuts(less than 65000)by our all time great trainer R.R.Byramji.No trainer was ready to buy them in he ring because of poor pedigree,but Byramji had that gift to spot a champion by looks.So all the other trainers and owners lost the opportunity,because of Pedigree.What pedigree Pyare Miya had when he won Indian Derby as a Maiden?
Where were these experts when Rochester won According to them he could not go to this distance,and also because he was beaten by distance by Lady In Lace in Pune Derby.You also said that just bet on PF and count your winnings.
So it is the performance that counts to pick a winner.
You have hit the nail on head that only 10% of the high pedigree horses perform.I cent per cent agree with you.this is a marketing strategy by the breeders to sell their horses,nothing else. Man started breeding race horses with three Arab horses,in the beginning.Now all t horses all over the world are brothers,,sisters and cousins etc.There are thousands of race horses and naturally few of good pedigree shall win.This is only by chance and not a Universal Truth.If one can get by pedigree,then they would all be billionaires.Here we have few experts on Pedigree of the horses and we have seen there selections,and also seen there performance in HT PTR.Nothig more to add.
@ Godzilla,
You have asked for a statics of horses{without Quality Pedigree) winning some classic races.
Squanderer,Monitou,Commanche,Elusive Pimpenell were All Time Greats in Indian history of racing,who not one but all the Classics that came in their way.All had no Pedigree and all bought for peanuts(less than 65000)by our all time great trainer R.R.Byramji.No trainer was ready to buy them in he ring because of poor pedigree,but Byramji had that gift to spot a champion by looks.So all the other trainers and owners lost the opportunity,because of Pedigree.What pedigree Pyare Miya had when he won Indian Derby as a Maiden?
Where were these experts when Rochester won According to them he could not go to this distance,and also because he was beaten by distance by Lady In Lace in Pune Derby.You also said that just bet on PF and count your winnings.
So it is the performance that counts to pick a winner.
Godzilla said ...
16-Feb-2018
Sorry
Randhir Kapoor not Ranbir Kapoor
Randhir Kapoor not Ranbir Kapoor
Larry said ...
16-Feb-2018
@Indian_Turf_Record
Thank you so much for the enlightening follow-up to my comments.
The purpose of my post was to elicit a response from learned ones like you, nothing else, and I'm glad you responded, and that surely served the purpose.
I quite agree with what you say, sure, at times all these figures and all studies goes for a toss. I'd brought up one interesting observation on the lines of Winter Renaissance earlier on when I mentioned about Quasar.
Just to digress from what you mentioned when you compared HE with Kangra, sir, you said that Kangra's numbers are marginally better than that of HE; I'm sure you're referring to the numbers of Honorable Eyes when you mention this, because if we look at the numbers for the Dam and the Damsire, definitely the numbers for Kangra are more towards the Classic (longer distance) side, whereas those for HE are more inclined towards that of a sprinter.
Mind you, my intention is not to dispute what you say, but I feel that Kangra's numbers* did indicate that it would go the distance, but in case of HE, I doubt if he's good for over 1400. (* When I talk about Kangra's (filly) numbers, I'm looking at both the Sire and the Dam's numbers, whereas for HE (colt), I'm just looking at the numbers from the Dam's side, and that is based on my belief that a colt does not benefit from the chromosomes of the Sire, whereas a filly/mare does).
@Godzilla
As I mentioned earlier, my post was just to request one and all to initiate threads with some sort of logical explanation, rather than just posting, and then waiting for others' inputs.
You chose to post the race card of Gloriosa, that's really nice, but may I ask you, what did Gloriosa do after that victory way back in 2009? Just managed to win a race over 1400 after numerous failures over longer distance. We do get such one-race wonders once in a while, and that's why this sport is such an unpredictable one.
Dear Godzy,
When I first came across the Horse Talk forum, I sort of admired you as your articles truly made sense, and I found that you had quite a fan following, with your posts having many HTalkers commenting and providing their inputs, but sadly that spark that you had then is not evident now. I know you have much more than this to offer, so if you feel I have erred in taking you on, my apologies, but as mentioned earlier, my aim is to just get learned people like you to offer their opinions so that we all can hone our skills, and probably zero in on that next winner with confidence.
Dear Indian-Turf-Record,
Sir, I consider you to be an authority as far as pedigree and other matters are concerned, and I find it a real privilege that today I'm having a debate with you regarding this topic. Thank you for this opportunity.
Just as I was about the post this, I read your recent post; that sure is an interesting one. I'll surely come back to you with my take on this. Let's continue on with this debate, sir, it surely is getting interesting.
Thank you so much for the enlightening follow-up to my comments.
The purpose of my post was to elicit a response from learned ones like you, nothing else, and I'm glad you responded, and that surely served the purpose.
I quite agree with what you say, sure, at times all these figures and all studies goes for a toss. I'd brought up one interesting observation on the lines of Winter Renaissance earlier on when I mentioned about Quasar.
Just to digress from what you mentioned when you compared HE with Kangra, sir, you said that Kangra's numbers are marginally better than that of HE; I'm sure you're referring to the numbers of Honorable Eyes when you mention this, because if we look at the numbers for the Dam and the Damsire, definitely the numbers for Kangra are more towards the Classic (longer distance) side, whereas those for HE are more inclined towards that of a sprinter.
Mind you, my intention is not to dispute what you say, but I feel that Kangra's numbers* did indicate that it would go the distance, but in case of HE, I doubt if he's good for over 1400. (* When I talk about Kangra's (filly) numbers, I'm looking at both the Sire and the Dam's numbers, whereas for HE (colt), I'm just looking at the numbers from the Dam's side, and that is based on my belief that a colt does not benefit from the chromosomes of the Sire, whereas a filly/mare does).
@Godzilla
As I mentioned earlier, my post was just to request one and all to initiate threads with some sort of logical explanation, rather than just posting, and then waiting for others' inputs.
You chose to post the race card of Gloriosa, that's really nice, but may I ask you, what did Gloriosa do after that victory way back in 2009? Just managed to win a race over 1400 after numerous failures over longer distance. We do get such one-race wonders once in a while, and that's why this sport is such an unpredictable one.
Dear Godzy,
When I first came across the Horse Talk forum, I sort of admired you as your articles truly made sense, and I found that you had quite a fan following, with your posts having many HTalkers commenting and providing their inputs, but sadly that spark that you had then is not evident now. I know you have much more than this to offer, so if you feel I have erred in taking you on, my apologies, but as mentioned earlier, my aim is to just get learned people like you to offer their opinions so that we all can hone our skills, and probably zero in on that next winner with confidence.
Dear Indian-Turf-Record,
Sir, I consider you to be an authority as far as pedigree and other matters are concerned, and I find it a real privilege that today I'm having a debate with you regarding this topic. Thank you for this opportunity.
Just as I was about the post this, I read your recent post; that sure is an interesting one. I'll surely come back to you with my take on this. Let's continue on with this debate, sir, it surely is getting interesting.
Indian_turf_record said ...
16-Feb-2018
@ Larry
In your posting you have asked " ..... as to when a colt with MD as sire and the dam showing strong speed numbers winning over longer distances."
Answer to that is Snowdrift. His numbers are:
Snowdrift (18) DI 3.00 CD 0.89
Dam (22) DI 3.00 CD 0.95
Damsire (40) DI 4.33 CD 1.10
Snowdrift won Calcutta Derby, Gr.1 over 2400 m. but I am sure you know that.
You have also made a comment that numbers of Honourable Eyes show that he cannot be anything more than a sprinter. The CD of Honorable Eyes, his dam and dam sire all less than one. I am sure you know that CD of 0 to 1.00 corresponds to a racing aptitude between 8 furlongs and 11.5 furlongs.
I have answered your question. I hope you will answer mine when you have time.
In your posting you have asked " ..... as to when a colt with MD as sire and the dam showing strong speed numbers winning over longer distances."
Answer to that is Snowdrift. His numbers are:
Snowdrift (18) DI 3.00 CD 0.89
Dam (22) DI 3.00 CD 0.95
Damsire (40) DI 4.33 CD 1.10
Snowdrift won Calcutta Derby, Gr.1 over 2400 m. but I am sure you know that.
You have also made a comment that numbers of Honourable Eyes show that he cannot be anything more than a sprinter. The CD of Honorable Eyes, his dam and dam sire all less than one. I am sure you know that CD of 0 to 1.00 corresponds to a racing aptitude between 8 furlongs and 11.5 furlongs.
I have answered your question. I hope you will answer mine when you have time.
Godzilla said ...
16-Feb-2018
Krish/Raj original
How many horses won Classics without a quality pedigree ? Can you give statistics.
When seniors are trying to impart knowledge on pedigree, why you and Raj behave like disobedient students in a Class ?
Dont try to spoil the quality of debate thats taking place here. It seems all you guys want is focus only your attention on gambling and adamant to learn matters relating to Horse Racing.
As manish said dragging names of Rajendra Kumar, Raj Kapoor and Dev Anand is funny. You are also conveniently forgetting the names of Sunil Dutt, Shakti Kapoor, Ranbir Kapoor, Prithvi Rajkapoor whose sons and daughters have become great actors/stars. On the other side, you can console yourself by adding one more in your list namely Rajeev Gandhi !!!!!
How many horses won Classics without a quality pedigree ? Can you give statistics.
When seniors are trying to impart knowledge on pedigree, why you and Raj behave like disobedient students in a Class ?
Dont try to spoil the quality of debate thats taking place here. It seems all you guys want is focus only your attention on gambling and adamant to learn matters relating to Horse Racing.
As manish said dragging names of Rajendra Kumar, Raj Kapoor and Dev Anand is funny. You are also conveniently forgetting the names of Sunil Dutt, Shakti Kapoor, Ranbir Kapoor, Prithvi Rajkapoor whose sons and daughters have become great actors/stars. On the other side, you can console yourself by adding one more in your list namely Rajeev Gandhi !!!!!
Indian_turf_record said ...
16-Feb-2018
@ Raj original
You are right that past performance is important. But past performance does not always give you the winner. Ruffina had won five races when she ran 1000 Guineas. Past performance told that. She had not raced over mile. Past performance would not and could not have told how she will fare over a mile.
On past performance Ruffina should have been favourite for 1000 Guineas. She was not. Why ?
Because those who go by pedigrees knew that she was not certain to get mile. On this occassion they were right.
Neither past performance nor pedigrees are always right and everyone has his own way of looking at races. Why ridicule others ?
You are right that past performance is important. But past performance does not always give you the winner. Ruffina had won five races when she ran 1000 Guineas. Past performance told that. She had not raced over mile. Past performance would not and could not have told how she will fare over a mile.
On past performance Ruffina should have been favourite for 1000 Guineas. She was not. Why ?
Because those who go by pedigrees knew that she was not certain to get mile. On this occassion they were right.
Neither past performance nor pedigrees are always right and everyone has his own way of looking at races. Why ridicule others ?
Munesh said ...
16-Feb-2018
Mr Godzilla As for your assesement Trevor is being used for giving a run Is he down graded to that level
Krish said ...
16-Feb-2018
@ Raj-original, Raj or Raj invisible?
I appreciate your write-up on thoroughbred racing. After long time some body is covering 95% truth about racing. For qualitatively pedigree analysis may be useful not must and quantitatively past performance is must.
Have great day!
I appreciate your write-up on thoroughbred racing. After long time some body is covering 95% truth about racing. For qualitatively pedigree analysis may be useful not must and quantitatively past performance is must.
Have great day!
Manish said ...
16-Feb-2018
Raj-Original,
Rajender kumar, Raj kapoor and dev anand were not horses.
Rajender kumar, Raj kapoor and dev anand were not horses.
Godzilla said ...
16-Feb-2018
Raj-original
You write all non sense and then conclude no offense to anyone. I think you are in a tearing hurry to pick up winners based on past performance. You have seen how the Horses performed based on past performance !!!
You write all non sense and then conclude no offense to anyone. I think you are in a tearing hurry to pick up winners based on past performance. You have seen how the Horses performed based on past performance !!!
Godzilla said ...
16-Feb-2018
larry
I have not opened the thread for the heck of it. I have seen the following performance of Gloriosa and written my opinion. If the owners run their horse for losing after becoming favourite like Prevalent Force, then I will agree your statement hold water !!!
Oct 4 2009 121THE CALCUTTA MONSOON DERBY(2009)2000 M - / 3 YEARS OLD ONLY 3:50 PM
Winner: Rs.2554980 Second: Rs.979409 Third: Rs.510996 Fourth: Rs.212915 Total :Rs.4258300
Record Time : Jan 23, 2017 COLOMBIANA 57 Kgs 2:02.07 Secs
Pl H.No Horse Name Desc Trainer Jockey Wt Al Dr Sh Won By Dist.Win Rtg Odds Time
1
7
GLORIOSA
HONOUR AND GLORY - TARNISHED LADY(USA)
3yo
b f
DARIUS BYRAMJI
C ALFORD
54.5 0 6 A - 69 - 2:12.46
2
2
CREDIT SQUEEZE
YOUNG SENOR(USA) - ANNELLA
3yo
dk b h
BHARATH SINGH
C RAJENDRA
56 0 2 A 2 80 - 2:12.79
3
5
SPECTACULAR STYLE
BURDEN OF PROOF(IRE) - SUPER MODEL
3yo
ch g
BHARATH SINGH
RYAN MARSHALL
56 0 7 A 2 2 58 - 2:13.12
4
1
ARCTIC FORCE
RAZEEN(USA) - FOREST PARADISE
3yo
ch g
VIJAY SINGH
B MAHESH
56 0 1 A 1 4 53 - 2:13.29
5
4
SECRET WHISPERS
BEE'S PROSPECTOR (USA) - TACTFUL
3yo
ch h
BATH
RAJINDER
56 0 5 S 3/4 5 62 - 2:13.41
6
6
ANASTASIA
STATUE OF LIBERTY - ODABELLA(IRE)
3yo
b f
P SHROFF
M NARREDU
54.5 0 4 A 1 3/4 5 3/4 62 - 2:13.71
7
3
ROYAL CHARTER
ROYAL KINGDOM(IRE) - EKA
3yo
b c
VIJAY SINGH
NEERAJ RAWAL
56 0 3 A DIST 7 1/2 61 - 2:15.41
Tote Favourite: CREDIT SQUEEZE Time: 2:12.46 WonBy: -, 2, 2, 1, 3/4, 1 3/4, DIST,Owned By : D KHAITAN REP. SOOM STUD FARM PVT LTD.
DIVIDENDS Win SHP Place Quinella Forecast Trinnella Exacta Rs.25 Rs.0 Rs.12, Rs.12, Rs.26 Rs.22 Rs.0 Rs.267 (396 TKTS)
I have not opened the thread for the heck of it. I have seen the following performance of Gloriosa and written my opinion. If the owners run their horse for losing after becoming favourite like Prevalent Force, then I will agree your statement hold water !!!
Oct 4 2009 121THE CALCUTTA MONSOON DERBY(2009)2000 M - / 3 YEARS OLD ONLY 3:50 PM
Winner: Rs.2554980 Second: Rs.979409 Third: Rs.510996 Fourth: Rs.212915 Total :Rs.4258300
Record Time : Jan 23, 2017 COLOMBIANA 57 Kgs 2:02.07 Secs
Pl H.No Horse Name Desc Trainer Jockey Wt Al Dr Sh Won By Dist.Win Rtg Odds Time
1
7
GLORIOSA
HONOUR AND GLORY - TARNISHED LADY(USA)
3yo
b f
DARIUS BYRAMJI
C ALFORD
54.5 0 6 A - 69 - 2:12.46
2
2
CREDIT SQUEEZE
YOUNG SENOR(USA) - ANNELLA
3yo
dk b h
BHARATH SINGH
C RAJENDRA
56 0 2 A 2 80 - 2:12.79
3
5
SPECTACULAR STYLE
BURDEN OF PROOF(IRE) - SUPER MODEL
3yo
ch g
BHARATH SINGH
RYAN MARSHALL
56 0 7 A 2 2 58 - 2:13.12
4
1
ARCTIC FORCE
RAZEEN(USA) - FOREST PARADISE
3yo
ch g
VIJAY SINGH
B MAHESH
56 0 1 A 1 4 53 - 2:13.29
5
4
SECRET WHISPERS
BEE'S PROSPECTOR (USA) - TACTFUL
3yo
ch h
BATH
RAJINDER
56 0 5 S 3/4 5 62 - 2:13.41
6
6
ANASTASIA
STATUE OF LIBERTY - ODABELLA(IRE)
3yo
b f
P SHROFF
M NARREDU
54.5 0 4 A 1 3/4 5 3/4 62 - 2:13.71
7
3
ROYAL CHARTER
ROYAL KINGDOM(IRE) - EKA
3yo
b c
VIJAY SINGH
NEERAJ RAWAL
56 0 3 A DIST 7 1/2 61 - 2:15.41
Tote Favourite: CREDIT SQUEEZE Time: 2:12.46 WonBy: -, 2, 2, 1, 3/4, 1 3/4, DIST,Owned By : D KHAITAN REP. SOOM STUD FARM PVT LTD.
DIVIDENDS Win SHP Place Quinella Forecast Trinnella Exacta Rs.25 Rs.0 Rs.12, Rs.12, Rs.26 Rs.22 Rs.0 Rs.267 (396 TKTS)
Raj-original said ...
16-Feb-2018
All this talk of pedigree is nosense.
Rajendra Kumar's son did not last 3 films. Rajkapoors 2 sons were utter flop.
DevAnands son did not last for second film.
I can type similarities in other fields till the end of the page.
Brilliant brains fore Father's we're ordinary people.So where did they get their IQ?
If most Superior animal"The MAN" can't carry his pedigree to next generation where on Earth can horses carry it ??
If pedigree is Soo impt. then I can prepare the winner/looser chart of all horses till they drop dead.
It's not how racing works. Jockey,trainer,owner,horse ,it's previous runs matter most.,See 2 to 3 runs of a horse and decide yourself.
Have all offsprings of great horses successful in racing? Not even 10% of great horses offsprings have successfull life.
All this talk of that horse brother ,sister, half brothers performance is nonsense.
Never play maidens is the mantra.
Now don't brand me that I know nothing nonsense.
If pedigree is Soo impt.some here could have found a winner in every race.
But that's not the case. Why?
This is general talk . No offense to anyone.
Rajendra Kumar's son did not last 3 films. Rajkapoors 2 sons were utter flop.
DevAnands son did not last for second film.
I can type similarities in other fields till the end of the page.
Brilliant brains fore Father's we're ordinary people.So where did they get their IQ?
If most Superior animal"The MAN" can't carry his pedigree to next generation where on Earth can horses carry it ??
If pedigree is Soo impt. then I can prepare the winner/looser chart of all horses till they drop dead.
It's not how racing works. Jockey,trainer,owner,horse ,it's previous runs matter most.,See 2 to 3 runs of a horse and decide yourself.
Have all offsprings of great horses successful in racing? Not even 10% of great horses offsprings have successfull life.
All this talk of that horse brother ,sister, half brothers performance is nonsense.
Never play maidens is the mantra.
Now don't brand me that I know nothing nonsense.
If pedigree is Soo impt.some here could have found a winner in every race.
But that's not the case. Why?
This is general talk . No offense to anyone.
Godzilla said ...
16-Feb-2018larry
Left to me, I could not have explained in depth with statistics like Indian_Turf Record. ITR has abundant knowledge.
That takes care of your apprehensions. Now you will have to go thru records before pointing a finger or expressing your unfounded views.
Indian_turf_record said ...
16-Feb-2018
@ Larry
You have opened interesting topic and hope that it remains serious discussion without becoming personal.
Dosage numbers are interesting and useful to an extent. They are not magical combination of numbers to solve racing puzzles.
My first question to you is how Winter Renaissance could win Queen Elizabeth II Cup (2800 mts) with following numbers:
Winter Renaissance DI 3.80 CD 3.00
Her dam DI 3.00 CD 0.80
Her damsire DI 3.67 CD 0.93
Now coming to Honourable Eyes. Compare her numbers with Kangra who won Bangalore Derby:
Honorable Eyes (2.43) 0.67 Kangra (2.38) 0.59
Dam (4.33) 1.00 (2.76) 0.69
Damsire (3.33) 0.92 (2.54) 0.57
Figures of Kangra are better but only marginally. She is Gr.1 winner over 2400 m. so no reason why Honourable Eyes cannot win handicap race over mile/2000.
Better than dosage numbers, it is good to study distance at which brothers and sisters have won. Dam Gloriosa won Calcutta Monsoon Derby over 2000 and her only previous foal is:
Adrestia (also by Multidimensional) 5 wins(three from 1600 to 2000)
Next dam Tarnished Lady won three races in USA including one stakes race. Most importantly she was second in Coaching Club American Oaks, Gr.1 (2400 m). Her foals in India:
Gloriosa - as above
Avesco 2 wins (1400 and 1800)
Lad Lady 6 wins (1x14, 2x16 and 3x18)
Falcon 6 wins (1x14, 3x16, 1x18, 1x22)
Festive Cheer 2 wins (1600 and 2000)
Reds Revenge 1 win (1400)
In racing we can make calculations but at end we bet more by instinct than study. In this case my money is on Godzy.
You have opened interesting topic and hope that it remains serious discussion without becoming personal.
Dosage numbers are interesting and useful to an extent. They are not magical combination of numbers to solve racing puzzles.
My first question to you is how Winter Renaissance could win Queen Elizabeth II Cup (2800 mts) with following numbers:
Winter Renaissance DI 3.80 CD 3.00
Her dam DI 3.00 CD 0.80
Her damsire DI 3.67 CD 0.93
Now coming to Honourable Eyes. Compare her numbers with Kangra who won Bangalore Derby:
Honorable Eyes (2.43) 0.67 Kangra (2.38) 0.59
Dam (4.33) 1.00 (2.76) 0.69
Damsire (3.33) 0.92 (2.54) 0.57
Figures of Kangra are better but only marginally. She is Gr.1 winner over 2400 m. so no reason why Honourable Eyes cannot win handicap race over mile/2000.
Better than dosage numbers, it is good to study distance at which brothers and sisters have won. Dam Gloriosa won Calcutta Monsoon Derby over 2000 and her only previous foal is:
Adrestia (also by Multidimensional) 5 wins(three from 1600 to 2000)
Next dam Tarnished Lady won three races in USA including one stakes race. Most importantly she was second in Coaching Club American Oaks, Gr.1 (2400 m). Her foals in India:
Gloriosa - as above
Avesco 2 wins (1400 and 1800)
Lad Lady 6 wins (1x14, 2x16 and 3x18)
Falcon 6 wins (1x14, 3x16, 1x18, 1x22)
Festive Cheer 2 wins (1600 and 2000)
Reds Revenge 1 win (1400)
In racing we can make calculations but at end we bet more by instinct than study. In this case my money is on Godzy.
Cannavarro said ...
16-Feb-2018
Mr.Larry
Please explain what is DP DI & CD to be convinced of your logic and judgement. Thanks.
Please explain what is DP DI & CD to be convinced of your logic and judgement. Thanks.
Gsl said ...
15-Feb-2018
Hi HT Friends,
Yes the pace was on by honourables eyes..travelled very well, stuck on with the saddle a bit too long as for our liking,he the jockey must have been advised to the pace for the race, I'm pretty confident there was no hanky panky for this race, Yes Larry is correct with the numbers, If the race was to run again on same terms, the results won't change for 1'st n 2"nd atleast.. But yes 1400 metres after a bit fine tuning which imtiaz is good at is a horse who wud very well..
Love all
GSL
Yes the pace was on by honourables eyes..travelled very well, stuck on with the saddle a bit too long as for our liking,he the jockey must have been advised to the pace for the race, I'm pretty confident there was no hanky panky for this race, Yes Larry is correct with the numbers, If the race was to run again on same terms, the results won't change for 1'st n 2"nd atleast.. But yes 1400 metres after a bit fine tuning which imtiaz is good at is a horse who wud very well..
Love all
GSL
Larry said ...
15-Feb-2018
At times I honestly wonder why some guys make real bold statements on this forum without any sort of research.
As Godzy asked us to back Honourable Eyes over a mile, and also upto 2000m, I thought I'd check on this one.
A look at the video, and it was evident that it's just about 6 furlongs that this one was good for, no doubt he fought well to grab the 2nd place, but that's all to it, nothing much to look beyond that. Winning a mile, or for that matter 2000m is pure wishful thinking.
Well, I'm no great reader of the run of a race, I rather dig into an area that I know I can handle/understand, and that's the pedigree charts.
The numbers for HONOURABLE EYES are DP = 3-2-7-0-0 (12) DI = 2.43 CD = 0.67, now at best they are numbers for a sprinter, not over that.
Now a look at the numbers from the dam side.
Dam, GLORIOSA DP = 6-4-6-0-0 (16) DI = 4.33 CD = 1.00
Damsire, HONOUR AND GLORY DP = 10-4-12-0-0 (26) DI = 3.33 CD = 0.92
Now these are numbers for a sprinter, not for a miler, or for that matter, over 2000m.
No doubt, we have Multidimensional as the Sire, but I would really want to know from well read personalities out here (I'm referring to ones who read pedigree charts) as to when a colt with MD as the sire, and the dam showing speedy numbers winning over longer distance.
The purpose of this write-up is not to demean anyone, all that it asks for is that if someone is initiating a thread, please do not just post for the heck of it, do your research well before asking someone to bet on a particular horse, who knows, there might be someone who might just keep this in mind, and back the horse just because of this thread, only to rue it later.
I hope you take this in the right spirit, Godzy.
As Godzy asked us to back Honourable Eyes over a mile, and also upto 2000m, I thought I'd check on this one.
A look at the video, and it was evident that it's just about 6 furlongs that this one was good for, no doubt he fought well to grab the 2nd place, but that's all to it, nothing much to look beyond that. Winning a mile, or for that matter 2000m is pure wishful thinking.
Well, I'm no great reader of the run of a race, I rather dig into an area that I know I can handle/understand, and that's the pedigree charts.
The numbers for HONOURABLE EYES are DP = 3-2-7-0-0 (12) DI = 2.43 CD = 0.67, now at best they are numbers for a sprinter, not over that.
Now a look at the numbers from the dam side.
Dam, GLORIOSA DP = 6-4-6-0-0 (16) DI = 4.33 CD = 1.00
Damsire, HONOUR AND GLORY DP = 10-4-12-0-0 (26) DI = 3.33 CD = 0.92
Now these are numbers for a sprinter, not for a miler, or for that matter, over 2000m.
No doubt, we have Multidimensional as the Sire, but I would really want to know from well read personalities out here (I'm referring to ones who read pedigree charts) as to when a colt with MD as the sire, and the dam showing speedy numbers winning over longer distance.
The purpose of this write-up is not to demean anyone, all that it asks for is that if someone is initiating a thread, please do not just post for the heck of it, do your research well before asking someone to bet on a particular horse, who knows, there might be someone who might just keep this in mind, and back the horse just because of this thread, only to rue it later.
I hope you take this in the right spirit, Godzy.
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