@ITR,

My both statements are not contradictory but are complementary.

Sprinter mated with sprinter will normally produce a sprinter. similarly stayer/stayer should produce a stayer - basic principles of breeding. But a stayer/Sprinter normally will not produce a stayer and vice-versa...
Enhancing the aptitude is not a contradiction, reducing it is...

The dam is the key, I have opened a thread on this forum, perhaps available in the archives...
I've given Roman numbers because they are available free; though I've always maintained in the past that they are faulty and incomplete. There are other numbers with dam as the dominant component but they are not free and a reader can not freely use them, because he has to pay to access them...

Avoiding the technical jargon,the scientific researchers have proved that speed and staying ability is closely related to 'mitochondria' of a gene which ONLY X (FEMALE) chromosome can contribute to THE offspring...

Furthermore please understand that while genetics is almost an exact science, breeding is not...

@ Chanakya

You have posted twice on 13/3/2018. In first of them you have said --"All scientific researches on thoroughbred genetics have clearly proved that is the dam which gives the 'aptitude' to become a stayer or a sprinter and not the sire of the juvenile...."

In second posting, you have said -- " A stayer mated with a confirmed miler or more will not produce a sprinter or a miler but someone who can go more than a mile and above should be a logical conclusion..."

Your second statement is a tacit admission of the fact that a sire can enhance the aptitude of the dam and therefore it is contradictory to the first statement.

It is surprising that you are now quoting Dr. Roman's magic numbers which again goes against the primacy of the dam. Everyone knows that those magic numbers are computed from the aptitudes of SIRES and not a single dam is considered.

The magic numbers don't prove anything. They are merely an indication of the probable aptitude of a horse and not a Holy Writ. The numbers of a horse are determined when he is born and do not change throughout his life irrespective of his own performance. They are as often wrong as they are correct.

The case of the mare Laurel Delight is very interesting indeed and I may come back to it. In the meantime can you please say what will be the aptitude of a horse born with magic numbers 5-3-6-4-4 (22) (DI 1.00) (CD 0.05) ?

Racing is a sport that is full of questions which have no answers and doubts that cannot be cleared. I believe that there are no theories (scientific, statistical or otherwise) which can predict any racing or breeding outcomes with an acceptable degree of probability and I try, in my limited way, to caution against accepting such theories as the gospel truth. That, however, does not debar anyone from holding any views.

@ ITR,
Cape Blanco(3-1-16-15-1)has won Irish Derby because his numbers say that he was capable....

His dam Laurel Delight(3-8-4-9-4) clearly PROVES that her offsprings can go upto or more than Derby distance...

She was MADE TO RUN only 1000m races by her TRAINER...
WHO TO BLAME ? the TRAINER or the speechless animal...

There are MANY MORE QUESTIONS AND DOUBTS about this and other examples but answer to these within the frame work of established facts and theories will help helpless punters...
please help them...

@ Shashank

Motivator may appear as a 'one off' example but that is because of a peculiar fact. The fact that for whatever reasons (commercial, fashion, supply and demand), the number staying stallions is very small. There are three major exceptions I can think of -- Montjeu, Galileo and Rainbow Quest (there may be more) -- and if you study their progeny you will come across more examples where the sire overrides the speed of the dam.

Take the case of Cape Blanco (Galileo - Laurel Delight), the winner of Irish Derby, Gr.1 over 2400 m. The dam Laurel Delight (by miler Presidium) ran 25 times and 24 of those starts were over 1000 m. as also her four wins. Clearly, this was a mare who was speedy and had no stamina. Mated to Galieo, sire classified in the C/S category, she produced a Derby winner. The stamina very obviously has come from the sire.

You may also like to consider the example of Treve, the two time winner of the Arc. I can also quote the example of Indian Derby winners Diabolical, Hot Stepper and Velvet Rope but just wanted to avoid cries of 'made up race', 'doosra', etc. In any case, if we are talking about a scientific truth, does it matter if the examples are from India, Europe or Timbuctoo ?

Your head post and Harry Go's post have mentioned Excellent Art and Phoenix Tower. Excellent Art neither raced nor won beyond a mile while Phoenix Tower won over 1800 m. but did not race beyond 2000 m. They clearly had stamina shortage. Obviously, they cannot give to a foal what they themselves did not posses.

I would now like you to consider the 'type' of sire. Burden of Proof was a miler while Win Legend won his three races at 1400 m. As stallions, they have been "blenders". They blend well with the stamina of dam and do not try to impose their own speed. Then there are 'passive' stallions like China Visit or Machiavellian (abroad) who go with the aptitude of the dam. Give then a speedy mare and they produce a sprinter (Attila) and from a staying mare they will get a stayer (Moonlight Romance). There is the third type, the "spoilers". This type of stallion will try to impose his own aptitude. They invariably commpromise the class/distance aptitude of their progeny. Stallions like Excellent Art and Phoenix Tower.

Finally, just two points. If one apple went into the sky when it fell from the tree, it would disprove gravity. Secondly, I do not think it is possible to clap with one hand. I have given some examples where there is sufficient evidence of a sire determining the aptitude of offspring. Everyone one is entitled to his views.

My algorithm on this -

BEGIN
If (Weak Sire Vs Strong Dam)
Forget betting on the foal until it gets on-board
Elseif
(Strong Sire Vs Weak Dam),
Forget betting on the foal until it gets first WIN
Elseif
(Strong Sire Vs Strong Dam),
Look at the past foal's of the the DAM with another/same sire (if any)
If there are any with first run successes, GO FOR BIG WIN on it
Else
Enjoy the race without any betting
END

@col sarat
Thank you sir.

@Giant Fly
I dont know what came first, the egg or the chicken, but felt this question was worth putting on the forum.
And yes I agree that both sides hold somewhat similar level of importance in determining the aptitude of the offspring.

@manish
I agree with your logic of "commercial reasons", which makes sire a prominent figure.

@chanakya
So until the fire of the debate gets doused off, lets continue to stick with the scientific researches.

@Indian_Turf_Record
Definitely MOTIVATOR was a 'bolt from the blue' kind of horse who excelled at longer trips without really having the stamina influence (DI 1.04). But we intend to reach the conclusion of this debate by law of averages, and not by one-off instances or by a few of those. And the dam-line is a substantial parameter of determining the aptitude of the horse, so just considering the dam and not the dam-line is a misapprehension of sorts.

@Raj-original
I started this thread just to share my knowledge and understand the facts from others. The intention is not from punting point of view but just to get a better understanding of thoroughbred breeding.
But I strongly beg to differ from your opinion that pedigree doesnt matter at all.

My comments are open for interpretation!!!

@ ITR,
We are discussing Indian scenario and not British racing...

However, let me explain...
Motivator sire is Montjeu(CS)...
The dam - Out West has run 5 times, won twice over a mile and placed over 1800m... then retired to stud...

A stayer mated with a confirmed miler or more, will not produce a sprinter or a miler but someone who can go more than a mile and above should be a logical conclusion...

More than that, the transformation of energy used during mobility of mammals - moving, walking running is provided by mitochondria; which is exclusively provided by the dam and dam line, not by sire or sire line...

What is mitochondria? go through the archives of these forums, where many times I've explained that...

As per my study, dam and damsire influence the staying ability of the horse. Look at all Multidimensional offspring. The stayers got their stamina from the dam-side.
The sire, on the other hand, seems to put bounds on staying ability or otherwise. Look at offspring of Phoenix Tower and Excellent Art - maximum they can go is a mile. They are perhaps best at 1200 to 1400 Metres. Exceptions like Rochester and Star Carnations only price the rule.
Pedigree experts keep studying dosages etc, but the horses keep proving the pedigree experts wrong.
For every well-bred horse like Phenomenale, there is a modestly bred Lady In Lace who is successful. And then there was Zenyatta!!

If you are new don't be carried away by some elders or soooo called experts here in HT who keep talking about pedigree here. It matters little or nil.
Who matters most is horse's previous 5 performance,trainer and owner and whether money is pouring on it or bookies have already decided which horse will win or owner is happy with odds or not, or trainer is a jerk or jockey us a jerk or trainer is a known puller for low odds????????
It's these things you should worry. Not pedigree. Pedigree is a laughable matter.
Nothing else matter other than intentions of connections.

Can someone who believes that it is ONLY the dam which determines the 'aptitude' of the offspring kindly explain how Out West, the dam of Epsom Derby winner MOTIVATOR, has contributed the stamina of the horse ?

It will be appreciated if the explanation is restricted only to the dam and not the dam line.

All scientific researches on thoroughbred genetics have clearly proved that it is the dam which gives the 'aptitude' to become a stayer or a sprinter and not the sire of a juvenile...

Commercial considerations compels a breeder to highlight the achievements of a sire and not the dam for the performance of a runner...

Its always the dam.

But due to commercial reasons, sire is being projected. A sire can have multiple offsprings in a season, as compared to dam.

So for breeders to have a better turnover, sire is projected as the main source of genes.

Your question is like asking which came first Chicken or Egg....

In a thoroughbred...both are equally important. For obvious reasons we always look at the Dam always to be stronger...but at the same time if you take the best mare in India today and mate it with say Holding Court or a much lower Sire/ Stud horse...what do you think the colt or filly would turn out to be?

It is therefore very important that both the Sire and the Dam be of good quality and the stud farms try their best to have the right connection and have the best foals...

Nobody is a Champion/ Star in this this business, therefore you will see the large no of foals produced every year, as the stud farms hope to find a Champion in the making and do it consistently.

All the best in your quest to finding the answer....

Answer is not as simple as u think.
Read the book FUNCTIONAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE THOROUGHBRED BY FRANCO VAROLA

Hello All,


The word sire in the horse world is usually used in place of father. A horse’s father is the sire, and so is the horse’s male parent. A foal’s sire then is the stallion who was bred to the mare to produce that foal. It is impossible for a mare to be a sire, as sire only refers to the male antecedents of a horse.

The sire can be used in the past tense. If a certain stallion is a foal’s father, it is said to have sired that foal.


The word sire has its roots in French, Latin and Old English and is related to the French word, monsieur, which means ‘my lord’. So the roots of the word and its general use is quite old. It’s rare to hear it used outside of talk about livestock.

Grandsire and Granddam
Just as your grandfather is your father’s father or your mother’s father, a grandsire is the sire of a foal’s sire. While generally, grandsire could refer to the sire of either the mare or stallion that produces a foal, there is another distinction that can be made. But first, you must understand the meaning of the word dam. A foal’s mother is called its dam. And, a foal’s grandmother on either side could be called its granddam. But, to specify the dam’s male parent, the word damsire is used. So, a foal’s grandfather on the mother’s side is its damsire. All of the horses on the female side of a foal’s parentage are said to be on the damside.

Or, another unusual word, distaff, may be used to talk about the mare’s pedigree. So the dam side can also be called the distaff side. In the racehorse world, a distaff race is only run by female horses.

Distaff
Both dam and distaff have their roots in early French and English. Dame is the French word for woman, and distaff came to be used to refer to women because of a tool used in spinning, which was regarded as women’s work.


On a horse’s pedigree, the dam or distaff side always appears on the bottom of the page. The sire’s pedigree is listed first.

Get and Progeny
You may also run across the word progeny. Collectively, all of a stallion's or sire’s offspring are called his progeny. The plural of progeny is progenies. If you are referring to a single offspring, the word get may be used. get, however, may also be used to refer to the sire’s offspring collectively too. The quality of a stallion’s get or progeny is the ultimate proof of his worth as a breeding animal. When researching a stallion to potentially breed a mare, good breeders will ideally look at the progeny or get, and assess their temperament, conformation and performance records.

An Example

For example, using the pedigree on allbreedspedigree.com of the Arabian mare bred in 1955, named Barcelona, we see that this horse’s sire is DOKTRYNER*. Her dam was BRUSSA. Her damsire was AMURATH SAHIB*. Her granddam was BRZYTWA. The distaff side is the lower part of the chart, tracing back from her mother’s pedigree.

Used in a Sentence, it would read like this: "My mare's sire is a thoroughbred. He was a famous racehorse whose grandsire was Northern Dancer."

Regards
Abbas J

I agree with you Shashank.For eg Stallion like Excellent Art has produced offspring which is capable to go distance like Star Carnation and you have best sprinter out of him named Ruffina.
Similar story goes with another stallion named Multidimensional.
Stayers like Alaindair and Sprinter like Adam both are out of same.
Moral of the story is Dam influences more than Sires.
Appreciate everyone's views.