Aravind /// very kind of you to start a thread on Sir cecil.
Chanakya/// keep up your good work it will enlighten us a lot

Chankaya! before criticizing and questioning their maturity, why dont you go back to your postings and recheck how many times you bite the dust

Thanks to all honourable members.I wrote two articles came.one was Besafe that writting from me opened up nearly 50 members took that for a detailed discussion. And second one now on SirCecil still gets response from honourable members. I am happy to get bottom of reccords thrown out by members on both occasions which were very useful for racing punters. In this case I would like to share that SirCecil still not won any classics.but the way it ran suggested it s big horse.I came to know many things which is new to me even though I am in racing since 70s.

@ Dr.K.R.Nath

Thank you for your kind words.

@ Glasgow Prince

It is interesting that second favourite for Epsom Derby on Saturday is a grey colt called Roaring Lion.

ITR,

22 wins out of 23 runs(correct); or 23 wins out of 24 runs ((incorrect) - does it make a very big error; to FORCE you to REPEAT IT TWICE! shows your'maturity'!

And don't lie! it is not your 'mental' computer but your Fonn's resultbook which gave you these figures(22 out of 23)...

you said S. Cecil is full brother of Hall of Famer - could you explain why Implicit Trust full sister of Hall of Famer flopped and could( or did?) not perform as well!!

the data, background you have posted is available on the internet- which is copy and paste method; where is YOUR INDIVIDUAL CONTRIBUTION?

YOU gave running margin average of sir cecil as 9 lengths plus; after 3 runs and given running margin of Red Cockade(7L+) Southern Empire(6L+) and Squanderer(4 1/2L+)...

Indirectly you are trying to prove that SC is far better than these stalwarts!

let us see how your blah blah 'bookish' knowledge helps you to remain relevant and useful to those who 'know' more than you...

few months or few years(?)bookish knowledge can( I'll not say - should/dare) not compete or challenge those who have learned the game very hard way- by experience, from failures,mistakes and slogging on a desk- without a computer or a connection to internet...

instead of living in past - come forward and post your analysis; with the help of data available on net; the probable winners of 1000 Guineas, 2000 guineas and Bangalore Derby runners - not now but a day before...

I've done it FREE, sometime ( few years ago) when I was active...

NOW I LEAVE IT TO YOU TO ENLIGTHEN THOSE WHO STILL BELIEVE YOU AND YOUR MEMORY - which SELECTIVELY picks up minor mistakes of OTHERS to remain in limelight ( or existence)...

Dear ITR,
It was exilerating ,reading your detailed post on Sir Cecil and other related information.
Of late,we haven't had such great writers here at Horse Talk.
TOm Krish and S.K.Sagarji and Glasgow Prince possess such a faultless style as you have and reading their reports is sheer pleasure.
We had a few more earlier ;Begum Lagadji,Seen It All and Cruise Bangalore in whose interesting posts,one Cannot find a single error of any kind.
The best among them was,of course,Mrs.Lagad.
Unfortunately,she stopped looking at HT a couple of years back and we will never have the good luck to read her mind blowing way of presentation.
My good friend,Seen It Alll,has Moreno flowery language than any here but he has also lost interest in HT.
Now we are left with -----.
Never mind -- we have you,Glasgow Prince,SKS and Chanakya to keep our interest in HT alive.
I am all the more impressed with your post which is from your Memory only.
Let me thank you once again,
K.R.Nath

godzilla
grey horses are fewer in number compared to chestnut
hence you feel they win seldom..

@ Chanakya

Indeed, my records are not computerised ! But my mental computer is good enough for me know that Elusive Pimpernel did not win 23 races !!

Coming to Sir Cecil.

PERFORMANCE

He is unbeaten in three starts and his last winning margin of 18 lengths is staggering and his average winning margin is 9 lengths plus. At this stage (end of May), not many horses had a comparable record. Some unbeaten horses which come to mind are Red Cockade (7 lengths average winning distance), Southern Empire (6 lengths), Squanderer (four and a half lengths) and Almanac (three and a half lengths). Three of Red Cockade's wins were by a distance. In those days if a horse by ten lengths or more, it was shown as distance.

Sir Cecil has won well but the quality of opposition he has beaten so far is not too eye catching. That is not his fault.

BREEDING

Sir Cecil is a full-brother to Hall of Famer, the winner of Indian Derby and Calcutta Derby and so obviously has the bloodlines to do well. His (and Hall of Famer's) DI is 2.43. Two other Calcutta Derby winners closely related to Sir Cecil on the dam side -- Snowscape and Snowdrift -- had DIs of 2.64 and 3.00 respectively.

Sir Cecil belongs to the Amber Forest stirps of the Dinner family. Amber Forest was imported by Maj P.K. Mehra of Usha Stud in 1970s and has established a very successful line. 15 Classic winners of 28 Classics descend from Amber Forest including Blue Ice, Snow, Amber Flash, Oncidium, Dangerous Liason and others. Those 28 Classics include seven over 2400 m. Initially, this was a family with more speed than stamina. (Snow and Blue Ice had a DI of infinity !)

Trustworthy, the grandam of Sir Cecil, placed second in her both starts, but did not win. Uninformed people may have called her a "Class IV reject" but she was better than that. Mr. D. Khaitan had paid big bucks for Trustworthy (Razeen - Snow) because she was a half-sister to Snow Forest, winner of Calcutta Oaks.

First foal of Trustworthy was a filly called Gisele (by Green Forest) who won Golconda Oaks. So when Trustworthy visited Elusive Pimpernel in 2003 she was already a dam of a Classic winner. That Elusive Pimpernel covering produced Elusive Trust who won two races for Mr. Khaitan and placed in both fillies Classics at Calcutta. One of Elusive Trust's win came over 2400 m. as a 3YO in Pune.

Elusive Trust is still owned by late Mr. Khaitan's Soom Stud Farm and is boarded at Dashmesh Stud. Her first foal by Carnival Dancer was called Amandus and is a winner of three ordinary races. Her next was a filly by Win Legend which died. Then came Hall of Famer followed by Implicit Trust.Sir Cecil is her fifth foal.

Sir Cecil (Win Legend - Elusive Trust) is bred on the same cross as Angel Dust. Though Win Legend himself won all his three races at 1400 m. in Japan, there are strong stamina influences on his dam side as Epsom Derby winner Commander In Chief and Rainbow Quest feature close up. He has done well with staying mares and so far produced four Classic winners -- Fly Like The Wind, Angel Dust, Hall of Famer and Aika Aika Aika. So far, no son of Win Legend has won a Classic.

The pedigree of Sir Cecil brings together two influential daughters of Almahmoud on opposite sides of the pedigree as also balanced inbreeding (through a daughter and a son) to Northern Dancer. The noted pedigree analyst Ken McClean was a great supporter of balanced inbreeding.

CONCLUSION

All this suggests that Sir Cecil has all the credentials to do well. How well ? That depends on his progress and fitness. He is fortunate in having as his trainer a man nearing his century of Classic winners and one who has trained his full sister to win the Indian Derby. His owners are non-betting lovers of the sport.

MISCELLANEOUS

A good horse deserves a good name and Sir Cecil has one. He has obviously been named in honour of the great trainer Sir Henry Cecil. Trainer Padmanabhan knew Sir Cecil very well. Not many will know that his erstwhile assistant and present Calcutta trainer J.E. McKeown is a son of Lady Cecil.

It is not known whether the late Mr. Sonny Brar had any close connection with Sir Cecil. It is known though that Sir Cecil spent time with the French breeder Madame J. Couturie. Sonny Brar also spent time with Madame Couturie. In fact, Right to Royalty, the grandam of Elusive Pimpernel, was purchased by Mr. Brar on a recommendation of Madame Couturie.

That is all I have to say.

@ Chanakya,

Indeed my records are not computerised ! But my mental computer is good enough for me to know that Elusive Pimpernel did not win 23 races !!

Coming to Sir Cecil.

PERFORMANCE

My racing guru a parsi in bng [long time back 80's told me not to back a grey befor 2.30 pm] I never questioned him and I did find some merit in his views.

There are many horse likely to run soon and Colts run will decide his future.So be patient

Watch out for pioneer a failed MUM fav .Superb Mock race. A winner when saddled

ITR,

the subject of discussion is not the colour of the skin of a thoroughbred; but a runner called Sir Cecil...

close your data-books and throw some light on this animal called - Sir Cecil...

what do you think about him - opine and say with logical reasoning...

WAITING FOR YOUR INTELLECTUAL RESPONSE...

@all,

ITR's records are all original - but in the form of Fonn's result books...

they can not be computerised... it may take months - working 10 hours a day, non-stop; to computerise 10 years data...

what about 15,20 or 30 years data?

we have to live what we can afford or have...

ITR can not have the luxury of computerised data today or in future...

@ ITR…………..I did not know such statistics were available. They present the greys’ case conclusively.

@ All

My perspective on the comparison with Dancing Dragon’s run and timing is as follows.

. Dancing Dragon, a 4 year old outclassing a class II field on promotion (with a stiff penalty of 18 rating points) shows that he is not an ordinary horse.

. Sir Cecil, a 3 year old clocked a better time though marginally in just the third outing of his career without any serious effort showing that he is a colt with an extra ordinary potential. Horses are generally expected to peak at 4 years or a little later. He was mildly but steadily pushed by the jockey in giving him what is known as a ‘bringing up run’. This is sometimes given if the competition is poor and the connections wish to give the horse an opportunity to improve his condition by the race run.

. Looking at the striding action of Sir Cecil, it appears that he will be more at home over a longer distance and this is one of the reasons why his timing over 1400 is not substantially better than D. Dragon. Notwithstanding that, his timing shows he would have beaten the same class II field hollow even at this nascent stage of his career.

All said and done how he will fare in the future will depend on a lot of other factors mainly his health and fitness.

Sir Cecil has done nothing wrong so far. All three wins are impeccable. But in my short experience with the sport summer champions have rarely carried form over to all important winter season. There have been so many horses who were hyped during this time of year every year but fared badly subsequently for one reason or another. So lets take it season by season and see how Sir Cecil performs. Right now there seems to be no match for him, lets wait and watch. True potential can only be judged when Sir Cecil gets real challenge and how he performs under pressure.

@ Aravind

All future classics for next 2 years? Have you forgotten Be Safe?

It is a good horse. That is all. What happens in future we do not know.

People are talking/comparing this horse with Elusive Pimpernel. At least 1O races it should run in the company of merited horses to be eligible to be compared with Elusive Pimpernel.

@ Glasgow Prince

Blue Ice was a grey.

You are right that greys are not in any way inferior. However, many people believe so including some well known professionals.

Only about 3 % of all Thoroughbreds are greys so they don't readily catch the eye. But if you look at percentages of winners of good races, they are very much on par:-

Indian Derby - 5/76 (6.58 %)

All Indian Classics - 14/378 (3.70 %)

Interesting debate on the merits and de-merits of Sir Cecil. In my opinion he is showing all the right attributes of a champion in the making and everything going well he should prove to be a really top of the line horse. He is being handled by one of the best in the business in 'Paddy' Padmanabhan who knows what it takes to make a champion racehorse.

For those who did not get to read this piece written by Sir Cecil's breeder Tegbir Brar after Hall Of Famer won the Indian Derby last year do use this link to get an insight about the process that goes into breeding racehorses in the hope that they turn out to be champions. Hall Of Famer and Sir Cecil are the result of over 20 years hard slog and more heartbreak than can be recounted and all of this based on a hunch about a filly with good bloodlines, the guts to back this hunch and the perseverance to keep going for 2 decades.

For those who read this article last year this is an opportunity to refresh your memories.

https://tegbirbrar.wordpress.com/2017/02/

@ santoshkumar vk

You are mistaking me for someone else. I do not have any database so you could not have done any cut and paste. My records are all original, uncomputerised records.

Errata : Blue Ice could have been a chestnut.

@ All

Speak to any breeder in India and he will tell you that the pecking order of mares is generally:

1. Imported mare

2. Mare which has already produced a Classic winner/black-type winner

3. Classic winning mare in India

4. Well performed mare (Black-type winner/black-type placed/Class I winner, etc)

5. Well related mare (sister to a Classic/black-type winner, daughter of a Classic/black-type winner, 'got-abroad', etc.

Elusive Pimpernel covered 15 mares in his first crop. They are:-

1. Another Ratham - Classic placed; half-sister to ASTRONOMIC, FOLLOW THE STAR, etc

2. Arousal - Classic winner herself

3. Cimerosa[IRE] - Imported mare

4. Corranto - Sister to one BT winner and three BT placed horses

5. Farcical[IRE] - Imported mare. Dam of two winners abroad including a black-type placed winner of 12 races.

6. Foo Fighter. Ordinary winner.

7. Gentle Melody[USA]. Imported mare.

8. Hieroglyphic. Ordinary winner.

9. L'Escargot. Half-sister to ENRICO, FOREST FANTASY, etc.

10. Northern Flower. Black-type placed winner.

11. Our Beauty. Ordinary winner.

12. Princess Everyday. By Everyday II out of a Classic winner.

13. Ruby Lights. Unraced. Her dam Classic placed.

14. Rythm of the Rain. Unraced. Dam closely related to Elusive Pimpernel.

15. Twilight Lady. Classic winner herself.

Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. So I leave it to readers to decide whether Elusive Pimpernel covered a good book of mares, a decent book of mares or "Class IV rejects".

These are all probabilities but the performance so far does hold out hope. That he is a grey need not be held against him. He is a full brother to Hall Of Famer, another grey. Many a grey have performed creditably in the classics……………Cordon Bleu, Thunder Storm, Revelation, Capricorn, Snow, Blue Ice, Romantic Dancer, Rhythm, Thumbelina, Grey Magic come to my mind immediately.

ITR
Elusive Hero won the deccan Derby.
The list of elusive Pimpernals Covering is quite long.I stopped it to include Sir Cecil's Dam.
I am aware some Mares did not Produce Foals,
My post is just Copied & pasted from your database.
Regards

@ santoshkumar vk

Thanks for your response.

You mention Arya Meher but she did not produce a foal to her covering by Elusive Pimpernel. On the other hand, mares like Goulaine{USA], Jerwah[USA], Shuddabbot[USA] and some others who had a foal by Elusive Pimpernel are missing from your list so your details are only partially correct.

I am sure that you are aware that Elusive Pimpernel had already produced a Derby winner before he covered Trustworthy (who incidentally is not a winner) to produce Elusive Trust.

Godzy,
NATIVE DANCER(USA) gr.H,1950- 22 Starts, 21 Wins, 1 Places
Futurity S., East View S., Hopeful S., Saratoga Special, Youthful S., Grand Union Hotel S., Flash S., Preakness S., Belmont S., Wood Memorial H., American Derby, Arlington Classic, Dwyer S., Gotham S., Travers S., Withers S., Metropolitan H.
Champion Two Year Old, 1952.
Champion Three Year Old, 1953.
Champion Older Male & Horse of the Year, 1954.
Assigned high-weight of 130 lbs on John B. Campbell's Experimental Handicap for two year olds.
Hall of Fame inductee, 1963.
Rated the No. 6 race horse in the 20th Century by Blood-Horse.
One of the most dominant sires of the second half of the 20th Century.
There have been lot of greys in india too who have perfomed well in gr-1 level
like Capricorn,Brave Dancer,Snow to name a few.

@ Santoshkumar,
Thanks for the information . Yes I meant this only.If you have data of E.Pimpernel's covering you will find initially he got only very few mares that too of lower class( class IV and A)... sometimes, if I remember correctly, he did not get a single mare for covering... he
that is the attitude of Indian breeders against our champion runners...

ITR,

spelling( i-> ee) variation or mistake may create error/confusion in thoroughbred's identity. It rarely will do for homo sapiens...

Godzilla,
If I recollect correctly; Capricorn was a grey and Snow- mare was also grey...

colour of the skin does not 'affect' the performance...

Guys

Grey and White Horses will not perform when required. Sir Cecil ability to travel more than a mile has to be proved.

As pointed out by me Dancing Dragon had carried more weight than Sir Cecil and clocked almost same timing easing up.

There are horses available now which can perform better than Sir Cecil when it comes to long distance Races.

It is too early to call Sir Cecil a Champion Horse of the country and crown it.
Many such horses have sparkled in a couple of runs and vanished. Its Racing one should remember.

I T R,
The ones covered by Elusive Pimpernel till Trustworthy gave birth to Elusive Trust(2nd Calcutta 1000 Guineas , Gr.3;3rd Usha Stud Calcutta Oaks,Gr.3) Was covered for Sir cecil to arrive Subsequently,Are given below.
Twenty Carats
Wild Dreams
Arya Meher
Broken Sky[USA]
Camaraderie
Deep In The Jungle
Different Reality
Follow the Star
Minnekonda[USA]
Misty Way[IRE]
Nationwide
Northern Flower
One Tough Lady[USA]
Pininfarina
Platinum Native[USA]
Royal Crichton
Silver Reflet[USA]
Sterling Prospect
Three In One
Winning Pretty
Another Ratham
Corranto
Farcical[GB]
Gentle Melody[USA]
Hieroglyphic
Minnekonda[USA]
Northern Flower
Our Beauty
Ruby Lights
Rythm of the Rain
Twilight Lady

This is what Mr chanakya tried to convey,I Understand.
Regards

@ Chanakya

If your EP is Elusive Pimpernel, then, he was trained by R.R. Byramji (not RRByramjee) and he won 22 of his 23 starts (not 23 of his 24 starts).

Not sure what you mean by:-

"EP initially NEVER GOT got better than Class IV rejects ..

let us see what he gets now in his fading years ..."

Could you please elaborate ?

Godzilla ji,

I did try all web sites including BTC before I got Utube reference. Everytime - 3 to 4 times,whenever I tried; BTC website gives a note : 'error 404...

Great job done by Bangalore Turf Club by installing high quality camera to telecast live races. It was enjoyable to see the running of SIR CECIL and also to see the quality of telecast which matches to International standards.Please work on to show the race from start to finish in one single frame. Thanks and better late than never.

chankya saheb

Why dont you go to Bangalore Turf Club Limited web and see all the videos date wise.

Its all available. No one needs to spoon feed.

thanks Santoshkumar,

I just saw the video on my mobile.
Yes, he seems to be a very good type. The hype may come true...
He definitely has a very bright future...

Chanakya Sirji

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iue-oaZRSzs
Regards

all,

no video replay even after 2 days?
why?

he is a 'big made' runner, will have longer stride...

Elusive Pimpernel was rejected by RRByramjee initially but on insistence of D. Khaitan, who was a very big owner those days; he reluctantly accepted this 'juvenile at that time'... rest is history - wins 23 out of 24 races and loses by shorthead carrying 60kgs.+ by another with only 48 kgs. 'load'...

EP , initially NEVER GOT better than class IV rejects...

let us see what he gets now in his fading years...

too early to predict

It won easy but to jump the gun it will win the derby is too early and carrying it too far.

First comes the colts and fillies Let us see the horses run in that.

There is no nothing like hero worship in racing

Dear godzilla hello sir please don't compare timings it changes according to the pace it won so easy with out a sweat and its a big made Grey colt with big heart it. Just see the turn of foot mark my words colts and Bangalore derby is in his mercy no horse can beat him right now he just comes and breezes past, I have never seen a horse which won by a street, if I remember properly the very same race won by mystical in same fashion or southerm empire too won like this.

@Aravind
@KS
Simple logic dear punters
Don’t get looped away by so called people
Ex:
1+1=2
But not
11
Hope all get your eyes open ...
Many Horses come and go , but only few remain stable,
It only depends on the race on that day it’s going to perform...
It’s pity to see all these judges how could they judge only after few runs that too in a normal horse field...

He is by far the best horse in the last 3 years. I’m waiting to see him demolish the so called champions Corfe Castle and star superior. All the Bang and Mumbai Classics are his for the asking. With a shrewd trainer like Pady he will be tuned to the minute. Go on Sir C will be cheering for you.

Guys

You are all jumping into conclusion on Sir Cecil very fast.

Race No.4 Sir Cecil carrying 57 kgs in a 1400 mtr Race clocked 1.25.45 sec. Other horses were not interested and gave up the race at the bend itself.

Race No.5 [the very next one] Dancing Dragon class 45 to 65, carrying 59.5 kgs impost for the same 1400 mtrs clocked 1.25.67 seconds.

Now tell me what is the big deal, you guys find in Sir Cecil to call it a Champion Horse. You guys also predict, this horse will win all future classics for two years.

Please be patient. as otherwise you guys will lose heavily backing Sir Cecil.

The best horse in India