@ ITR,

i said big heart does not rest on dickey legs...

prove what you want to...

@CRK,

This man does not know what we are talking about...

has the audacity to say Roman number have no relevance in Indian racing - exposing his 'level' of intelligence...

Larry has given the Roman numbers for Elusive Pimpernel (8-1-3-2-2). I'm giving numbers of another good sire - Multidimensional (4-4-17-1-2) which has also been as successful as Elusive Pimpernel...

you must have heard the proverb - fools jump in where angels fear

to tread - he is one of that jumper !

You have asked him for an example - he does not know the subject , how can he give anything...

@ Patel,,

You have exposed yourself when you wrote that 'very recently' I have explained about Noble Eagle's Derby win. Noble Eagle won Derby in 2003 - 15 years ago; I did not write anything about him during last 10 years - may be more...

If something which has happened 10 to 15 years ago is 'very recent' as per you what will be past in your perception!

@ buddy,

don't live in past. Post some sensible information - not a riddle that Pessi will bring out a rabbit...

Name the runners of Pessi who are likely to challenge SC...

Raghubhai -  its too early to talk even Pesi will have to extend some of his horses to get a clear picture , how much the horse can improve only time will tell.

Chanakya - you think & talk even then it does not make sense - you need to have yourself examined.

S.C - is very genuine will be there at the finish -  but it has been fully ready to win from a long time-  If pesi enters two horses one of them will be there at the finish,might win , some of his horses have shown great improvement!

Friends,

    Why we are discussing this topic ? Nobody is interested in Roman nos. or large hearts.

   This topic has been opened by Chanakyam only to divert attention from his thread about making money betting on all horses. His tips were in big minus, he has stopped contributing and so needs something else to show off. 

   Very recently he explained how Noble Eagle won Derby using Roman nos. Now he says they are rubbish. He changes opinions to suit convinience.

Sir Cecil is a great horse.  It will win derby.  But, if one applies  Roman numbers theory, one is puzzled.  Because as per that theory, the horse appears to have no stamina at all.

So said Chanakya.  In the lead post.  Several people replied.  However after so many replies, Chanakya is not any wiser.  Nor those who browse this thread.  It is just like a man walking aimlessly and be forced to take a U-turn after coming across a dead-end.

I do not want to involve in any speculation as to whether Roman Numbers theory is good or not.  Anyway in Indian context, that is not reliable.  At least it does not explain Sir Cecil's heroics.  What may be the reason?  Whether theory is faulty?  Or one does not have studied the theory in full?

Whatever it is.  I do not agree that the theory is faulty.  So the other thing I have mentioned holds good.

Chanakya addresses me as loser.  Confirmed loser, perennial loser etc.  Very good.  But he says only the half truth.  The full truth is he is also loser.  And, all the punters across length and breadth of the country.  The winners are Bookies, Government & the Club.  If we do not have the heart to accept this simple truth because of our ego, then we are cheating ourselves.  

Of course Chanakya is a winner.  On paper.  He has to just view the result in newspaper or computer  and note down the winners. And claim profit accordingly.  People will praise his immense knowledge.  He declared his million gains in this site often.  But stopped that after I asked him some uncomfortable questions.  Of course when he saw that Malavika, a horse tipped by him, finished 3rd, he jumped in joy and claimed he had bet on that and claimed 70 paise odds.  That too at 1/4th of win odds.  The public were quick to point out that such concessions are possible only in each way bet.  In any case, the horse finished 3rd and there were only 6 runners.  

I do not call Chanakya a loser.  Because I know everyone is a loser.  Ignore minusule exceptions like Rajinder Krishna and others.  But Chanakya is furious.  Furious at me.  He has not come across anyone who puts up such strident and uncomfortable questions.  Even today, many people ask only me to leave Chanakya alone.  But speak with careful words to Chanakya .  Perhaps his Military service is the reason.  O K.  He has made such a loony claim that Malavika paid him 70 ps dividend.  You can understand how desperate he is.

I deal with him only as a punter.  Not only him.  Even an ambassador or great professer or doctorate holder or scientist.  You see.  Race betting is a great leveller.  That bookie may not stand a chance in any type of contest with you outside the race course.  But, his mission is completed once he writes odds, and tempt you to bet.  And you may have Dr, Sir  etc as prefixes to your name.  You may have too may degrees to suffix your name.  But when the race results are declared, you will look sheepish.

Now this is getting interesting.

@Raghavan,

Of all the people who posted on this thread, it's only you who felt offended by my mention of nonsensical stuff, so you own up to the fact that you post nonsense.

As regards your knowledge of racing, Chanakya has very kindly responded on my behalf; if you can't see the relation between EP and SC, well, there's nothing left for me to say, your ignorance has said it all. And yeah, by the way, EP is Elusive Pimpernel, and SC is Sir Cecil; just realized that you might be wondering what those initials were, thought I'd make it easier for you.

Cheers, mate!

crk,

I am only telling that Roman numbers theory is outdated and useless in the context of Indian horse racing.

I do not know since which year this site existed.  Let us take it is in existence from 2005.  So for 14 years whether anybody has talked about Roman numbers in this site?

Chanakya himself says he is puzzled with the Roman numbers theory and Sir Cecil's victory.  So many letters have appeared in this thread.  Whether any one horsetalk member has given any explanation?

Chanakya says Roman numbers theory has not modified since 30 to 40 years and we can not give any value to such theories.

"Chanakya has initiated an interesting topic...Please do not kill any debate"

I am not killing any debate.  But, I am saying that the topic is useless.  To you it may be interesting.  To me it is the bundlebaaz.  Pure and simple.  Chanakya is answering my post.  But, it will do this thread lot of good if others do not indulge in chamchagiri.

@ C. Kaushik

        Are you saying that a large hearted horse cannot have dicky legs ? If your answer is "yes", I will provide examples to prove you wrong. Of course, admitting that you are wrong is not in your blood. 

@ all,

The hollowness of racing knowledge, as well as limited common sense, and ignorance of the subject is exposed by the statement of a 'proclaimed' loser by this statement:

'Lawrence Fargo has written something about Elusive Pimpernel while we are talking about Sir Cecil. It seems if we are discussing Deepika Padukone, he will talk about Hema Malini.....!!!!

 We are talking about Sir Cecil(SC) and his pedigree. While E. Pmpernel has a vital position  in the main subject's pedigree , this EXPERT and writer of innumerable ( more than 500) postings does not know - what we are talking about!

How can anybody take a very low IQ person seriously - I wonder ?

Yes, on & afree forum everybody can write anything - it is confirmed...

@ buddy,

Don't try to do U turn...

 think before you say...

@ ITR,  Big  heart  does  not  rest  on  dickey  legs...  it  can  never...

 Secretariat and  Phar  Lap  had large (big)  heart as  confirmed  by  autopsy...

There  is  no  relationship  between dicky  legs  and  large  heart... 

@ Larry,

In continuation of my earlier remarks, I must add that though 'current' Roman numbers do not reflect accurately the actual potential of a thoroughbred(TB) but a detailed analysis of the chart can still give the reliable information about the potential of a progeny. Agreed it will consume time of a handicapper but it is worth it.

Have a look only at the female component, it will give enough evidence about the staying prowess of this runner.

In 2012 during a discussion on my thread on maternal contribution in the performance of a TB - this is what I've said :

Secondly ,mtDNA which converts chemical energy of the food into a form that mammalian cells can use (called adenosine triphosphate-ATP) is EXCLUSIVELY MATERNALLY INHERITED. This means that the mobility(including speed ,staying ability etc.) of an animal (including humans) is directly dependent on the efficiency of the conversion by the cells with the help of mtDNA provided by the maternal ancestors .

MsHahn’s large heart theory –transferred by only the dam of aTB which was manifested by the heart of Secretariat and Phar Lap, and Dr. Matthew Binns who has discovered the speed gene from a British mare clearly confirm the significance of the contribution of the mare.

Multidimensional and Elusive Pimpernel confirm my point of view...

Buddy, 

You say you will lay Sir Cecil.  When the punting community are more than satisfied that Sir Cecil will win Derby & Invitation cups.  However, let your judgement prove right.  That is not a bad bargain at all.  There are plenty of examples where odds on favorites have lost.

However, I would like that you give the names of Pesi Shroff horses that may spoil Sir Cecil party.   Now 1000g and 2000g races are over.  Arabia & Sacred Roman are the two horses from Pesi stable that are exposed so far.  

But one thing I am amused is you are bent on laying Sir Cecil.  By laying you may get 10000/- for 8000 risk.  Why should you not play for win itself Pesi Shroff horses.  My view is that will be offered at 6/1 with the bookies.

@ Raghavan,

Can you cite one racing expert (foreign or Indian) ,who says that Dr. Steven Roman's DP and CD of thoroughbreds have lost  it's relevance in present day racing ? Or, probably,you think pedigree is all hogwash,and the breeding industry is all about shaadi.com ?

Chanakya-I did not jump fence into anyones property , this is public property , now you are again firmly back with the MAJORITY - Sir .Cecil  win,80% say that - SC even if it wins it will be hard fought - I just hope Pesi enters two horses- if He does that I will lay S.C !

Regarding Chanakya's post 21/12/2018/ 02.38pm

I had precisely said the same thing.  Wonder whether Chanakya is taking cue from my postings though stating that I do not know ABCD of racing.

The extracts from my earlier post -

"Roman numbers has very little relevance nowadays...   It would have been perfect launch pad for further improvement...  But, people preferred to ignore after seing that the theory is being refuted too often,"

What Chanakya says.  "we can not accept apparent value of theory which has not been modified or upgraded during last 30 - 40 years".

Earlier Chanakya has quoted that rousing performance of Sir Cecil can not be explained by Roman numbers.

Then the ineviatble conclusion is desperate to see his name in print, he brings some outdated and useless post.  And the funny part is while doing so he completely forgets about his declaration that this site is not caring to publish his post and so he will hereafter post all his ideas in his own blog.

Lawrence Fargo has written something about Elusive Pimpernel while we are talking about Sir Cecil.  It seems if we are discussing Deepika Padukone, he will talk about Hema Malini.

@ Lawrence Ferro.

Oh I see! You have mentioned about Elusive Pimpernel.  But what I am saying is you do not have any idea of how Sir Cecil is reeling victories one after another.

What I objected to is your statements that non sensical replies are received in this thread.  Why you are worried?  You post your ideas and be done with that.  

You do not care any vitriolic posts about you.  Seems I am in good company.  Even I do not care.

You see, you speak something unwarranted about the replies in this thread that they are non sensical.  And, I reacted in equal tone and tenor.  Had you just posted your ideas, I also would have remained silent. 

Chanakya claims that he is a man of super intelligence in racing.  I asked him to prove that his strike rate is at least 1/3rd.  Only because of his laughable claims.  Tell me, what I should ask frm a man who says he studies horses several hours before finalising his selection.  Is there any other parameter where we can examine his claims.  And I am not asking 100% strike rate.  Only a modest 33%.

I do not depend on any body's tips.  My only point is people should not make loud claims about their intelligence.  You are riled because I asked Chanakya to prove his worth. 

He gave some tips.  One such tip was Malavika which he recommended for place.  It finished 3rd.  Yes third.  And that was sufficient to Chanakya to jump in joy and claim  that he got 70ps dividend on that.  But the problem was there were only 7 runners in that race and one was scratched.  So, in a six horse field Chanakya claimed that his tip was good and HE GOT 70 PAISE ODDS.

Even that 70ps is only theory.  That place dividends are 1/4th of win dividends.  I think such concessions are allowed by bookies if that was an eachway bet.

So far I have not seen any one so desperate to claim win dividend on a 3rd placed horse in 6 horse field.  Only in such free forums like this, such monkey tricks  are possible.

@ all,

Design of Roman numbers has inherent fault because it considered only the male line of pedigree and ignored totally the female line; ignoring the basic fact that EQUAL number of chrosomes are contributed by sire and the dam. Therfore the performance should give EQUAL importance to both the parents.........

However, one point which goes in favour of Roman's theory is that in USA the fillies and few mares who keep running are rarely hard pressed to prove their capabilities in a race because they are normally sent to breeding shed as 3 or 4 year old...

On the contrary, in India we race fillies and mares till they can 'deliver' cash and then are they sent for breeding for whatever they are worth..............................

another point...

VERY FEW, perhaps one or two Indian sires have been able to compete with got abroad sires . Elusive Pimpernel is one of them - may be only one....

It pains me to STATE that another great Indian sire called Squanderer was not given any good mares and for 2 breeding seasons he DID NOT HAVE ANY 'B" GRADE MARE TO COVER....

This shows the true colours of INdian breeders...................

(to be continued)

buddy,

you have jumped the fence from the other forum...

try to understand what I said. I've not moved to fence, only said that La Rondine may be a contestent ; never said she will be a threat...

To be precise, Pessi has no horseeven if Pessi brings out a ‘horse' he/she will be behind SC. In next 40+ days nobody can improve to be threat to SC...

Am I clear?

@ Larry of LV

    I think you used to post as Larry of LV  long time back. We did have some interaction and in one instance you even referred what I said to a lady (I forget her name but I think she had something to do with Reines de Chef or Conduit Mares) and you were good enough to report what she had to say.

The only experts in this complex field are those who have done some original research and come up with their own observations. All of us are self proclaimed experts beacuse we try to interpret what these experts have said.

You said, "....horse needs to have a big heart, and that's something the dam passes over, not the sire."  This statement is not entirely correct. An X-Factor  stallion can -- and does -- pass his large heart to his daughters. You may like to take a look at Marianna Haun's work on path of the large heart. 

Incidentally, my peronal opinion is that a large heart is not the end and be all of the matter. A horse may have a large heart but if he has dicky legs and is prone to bleeding, he will not amount to much.

You may be right about Elusive Pimpernel's contribution but just keep in mind that Elusive Pimpernel is not an X-Factor horse.

I have addressed this to Larry of LV whom I remember as an amenable, easy going sort of person. Lawrence Ferro comes across as a man angry with the world.  

Mr. L. Ferro,

I know you have understood the UNDERLYING theme of this posting. What i want to say is that we can not accept the apparent values of a theory which has not been modified or upgraded during last 30 or 40 years. Any system, theory or approach MUST take in consideration the volatile changes in the 'field'.

If you don'tdo it you are dead before the death...

A confirmed (as per him) loser in this game , who dooes not know of ABCD of Roman numbers jumps on the 'discovery' that they are out-dated; without realising that the 'background' to create these numbers is far complex and is BEYOND HIS COMPREHESION...

Ask him why Elusive Pimpernel - an Indian sire, has been a succesful sire and will remain so for some/many years inspite of many IMORTED SIRES USED BY MANY BREEDERS...

He will have no IMMEDITE ANSWER; ofcourse after searching he may throw out some outdated garbage...

His desperation to make some money out of other's effort, knowledge, intelligence is starkly visible when he asks/begs/requests/advices others to POST THEIR SELECTIONS!

Only on a free forum these monkey-tricks are possible....

@ Raghavan,

Chanakya has initiated an interesting topic and posted his views. Others have responded with their views but none have ridiculed his views. If you have some views on the said subject,kindly comment on that,rather than making some personal remarks and digressing from the topic. Okay, your contention is that he is trying to show off his knowledge and you end up by challenging him to post his selections. Is this how all posts should degenerate into...?

Please do not kill any debate with your personal agenda and biases. A little introspection on your part may be just what the doctor Rx, and just as true for all of us. !

Yours in frustration.

Wow , Chanakya - allready on the fence that is QUICK!

GG - Long time since you posted something , always happy to read your inputs -  First of all SS has no chance - Sir Cecil is the one to beat- even money in the ring odds say it all - but Sir Cecil will get beat some of pesi's horses & couple more wil come up lots of time left for the Derby ......[will be even money in the ring] This is Mumbai Derby !

Raghubhai - i will merely say Sir Cecil will get beat -  I have seen some horses striding well with capability to impove a great deal [no names/my wish] Fact  is there are are shrewd trainers like Pesi who has a couple of horses  which can improve a great deal- Rabbit out of the hat ......why not!

Hey Raghavan,

Please get your facts right before going on to post a lengthy repartee, probably that's all you do in life, right?

You mentioned that I did not bother to mention how I felt SC managed to score so often, if you could just go through the post once again, and read what I've mentioned about Elusive Pimpernel, I guess you'd get an answer there.

And yeah, why are you looking for someone with a strike rate of about 35 to be posting here, just do your homework mate, rather than relying on somebody else's hard work.

Go on, post some more vitriolic comments against me, don't really care.

@ GG,

You have very correctly analysed the Bangalore Derby run of SC. He can be in the front bunch or may come from behind and still win. But I doubt that Derby will be only between SC and SS; I think La Rondine if gets a gap of 3 weeks plus if accepts will also be a contestent for the plum. And who knows , Pessi may bring out a 'rabbit' from his bag...

All that Chanakya has said is that Roman numbers have lost their relevance and nowadays no one cares about them.   Even in the lead post, Chanakya citing example of Sir Cecil says that the horse will win but if one applies Roman numbers theory, then one will be puzzled because as per theory Sir Cecil has no stamina.

The horrible conclusion is that Roman numbers has very little relevance and has least takers nowadays.  Though it mght have worked for a limited period.  It would have been perfect launch pad for further improvement.  But people preferred to ignore it after seeing that theory being refuted too often.

Even Lawrence Ferro has said that his view will be more ridiculed than appreciated.  He says he was away from this site for long.  But why he chose  reply to this  post is a mystery.  Because he has not cared to explain how Sir Cecil's win can be tallied with Roman number's theory.  He says there are many non sensical views expressed in this thread.  It would have been better if he had restricted his comments to what he knows about Roman numbers rather than make a sweeping statement about the replies here. 

He says he reappears after a long holiday.  And what he has written.  That Sir Cecil has no great numbers to match his rousing performance.   If he consider the various replies in this thread non sensical, I do not consider this post is written by a great wise man either.  

The point is Chanakya comes with an outdated theory.  And such posts gets no fine responses than what has in the thread.

Some say Chanakya is a man of supreme intelligence.  I do not praise anyone for the sake of praising.  All I am asking is to tip horses and convince everyone that he is at least above average tipster and his choices command a strike rate of more than 33%.  That is he has the option of mentioning two wrong horses for one right horse.  If he fails even in this, then it is better to agree that he is no better than many other racingpulse members.

Chanakya desires to see his name in print.  He takes sanyas from this site, but will reappear in a short time,  and decides to write something so that people just react about his amazing knowledge.  Well.  I call a spade a spade.

Pinaki Ghosh,

Thanks for the kind words and the opinion that I do try to share my knowledge (or understanding) of racing gained from experiences in this field...

Mr. Lawrence Ferro,

Welcome to the forums where more ' tu tu- main main' is exchanged than the knowledge, information or ideas. Where a prolific writer ( but with useless content),addictive, restless man, who knows nothing about racing jumps in, to 'see' his name in print...

You are very correct when you say that Roman numbers have lost their 'value' because they were created with mathematical precision without any flexibility or leverage. Those numbers were created with the ageold belief and acceptance that ONLYsire is IMPORTANT AND DAM IS SECONDARY OR DORMANT...

It worked well for some time but the ' mistake' of considering only the upper 'half' of the lineage became evident after few generations...

My grouse or my point is that if Dr. Roman can do it with limited information at that time WHY THERE IS NOBODY who can CREATE another ' standard' with the help of abundant data ;to create,produce , publish a modified, relevant version of same or similar 'product'...

'fifth' horseman of A. Duma's 'story' are not welcome...

Sir Cecil has the stamina to win the Indian Derby.He has proved that  by winning Banglore Summer Derby(2000M) very easily,and proved his superority  to others in no  uncertain terms.SC won the Banglore Derby coming from behind Star Superior (Who was dictting terms till last 400 m.),and won going away from the field.This proves that longer the better for him.         Whenver SC and SS have raced together,the third horse is always six or more lenghts behind.THEREFORE iNDIAN dERBY IS GOING TO BE AGAIN A TWO HORSE AFFFAIR BETWEEN THESE TWO.Whatever the number of the other horses,the bookies will not open the odds more than 60/100 for Sir Cecil,that too if SS is running in the race.                      

Hi guys, 

Visiting this space after a very long time, and find some interesting topic being posted, and as usual, instead of applauding the efforts, just like earlier, I find some nonsensical stuff mentioned by some self proclaimed learned ones, however, here's my two-bit about it.

I do not read much into the DP figures for the horse under consideration, because somehow I feel that those numbers really don't reflect the true potential of the animal, probably because this system is more biased towards the figures on the sire's side.

In this case Sir Cecil's numbers seem to be quite ordinary, so where are the numbers hidden.

I for one believe that for a long distance race, it's the dam's figures that are important, because, if what I've read during the course of my research, for a long distance race the horse needs to have a big heart, and that's something that the dam passes over, not the sire.

Now if we look at the dam side of SC, not too great numbers for the dam, however, one look at the damsire, and probably we know where the stamina is coming from, and we're talking  about one of the greatest horses to grace our turfs. Do have a look at his numbers below.

Well, not outstanding numbers I would say, however we have figures in all the stamina fields, 3, 2, 2, and that means that it's not just 2400, but SC could be good enough for a bit more leg work.

ELUSIVE PIMPERNEL   (IND) ch. H, 1991 {5-c} DP = 8-1-3-2-2 (16) DI = 1.91   CD = 0.69

Just my thoughts, guys, thought I'll share it. Of course, once again there might be someone posting some nonsense based on what I've mentioned, but who cares, I have a right to voice my opinions, right?

And by the way, Mr. Chanakya, I've always valued whatever you write, so please continue posting.

I am sure paddu ji is watching our analysis and prepares accordingly

It's astonishing sir cecil  sizzles 

It's time because of owner trainer in their efforts to make maximum returns will make it look like a force that cannot be prevelant oh memories of prevelent force still fresh on our hearts

Whether sir cecil sizzles or not

One thing is certain 

Success destroys

Derby is Faraway in Feb ... 

Buddy jee,

I have my own doubts about the odds that you are predicting  to Sir Cecil. 

The only horse that gave tense moment to Sir Cecil was Star Superior in the colts trial of Bangalore.

If you are having some horse in mind then name that horse.  Merely saying that the horse will be from Shroff is too vague statement.  Anyway, I will lose no sleep if Sir Cecil is beaten!

@ Santosh,

Present day breeders produce mostly sprinters due to commercial reasons, because 90% of races are run below a mile...

Furthermore, if you pick up 10 or 12 sprinters and make them run 2400m , one of them is bound to win the race - most probably in less than 2m 34s!

Therefore do not reject a runner on the basis of his running style ; compare and analyse the 'field' of a race...

@Race time,

lower DI & CD gives a better stayer ; therefore SC is better...

@ITR,

'Nil value' is what I'm trying to highlight and stressing that to assess a runner's capability we must study him/her in totality. Desrt God (8-0-8-0-0) and Super Storm for example, have no 'stamina' attribute but analyse the pedigree - Desert God has Running Flame , Stomata to name only 2 females which will give him more than enough stamina to win Indian Derby...

@ all,

This 'fifth' horsemen of A. Duma's famous story does neither knows the subject nor the meaning of the headpost and exposes his 'knowledge'...

@buddy, & Rksh,

The current form indicates that SC is superior to all 3 yo's and if in form and fit at Indian Derby time should win. I don't think Pessi can bring out arabbit from his bag...

@ ITR,

I'm not talking in puzzles. And I normally do not speculate . Many years ago in this very forum after Banglore summer Derby was won by Ramaswamy ; I started a thread ' Ramaswamy has all the Aces in his bag'. And what he did . He won most of the monsoon and winter classics with his fillies and colts/geldings - but with a difference . He won all these plums with a DOOSRA, winning with a fluke and 'losing' his favorite!

I'm trying to highight the importance of pedigree in this post...

Regarding Hall of Famer, who is full sister of SC; you are indirectly accepting my viewpoint in that if HOF can do it - why can't SC also do it?

How HOF did it is evident from the performance/ bloodlines of the various females in her pedigree - Shinko Nobi, Trustworthy, Right Step etc. Of course, Elusive Pimpernel can also be given equal, if not more, importance... .

     Is " 'NIL' value of stamina in his 'Roman Numbers' ..."  really relevent ? 8 of last 18 winners of Indian Derby had "NIL' value in their stamina numbers

People like me read horse talk to enhance knowledge about racing and other paraphernalias, which is attached to this great sport.

In the said aspect, write up of learned Chanakya is a revealation and we always do appreciate his insights about horse racing.

SIR CECIL  (IND) gr. C, 2015 {11-a} DP = 5-0-7-0-0 (12) DI = 2.43   CD = 0.83 - 7 Starts, 7 Wins, 0 Places, 0 ShowS

CORFE CASTLE b. C, 2015 {14-a} DP = 2-6-10-0-0 (18) DI = 2.60   CD = 0.56 

now tell me who’s is better stayer depending on this data and check what reality is. I believe our data is not at all adiquate. It’s not worth looking at them. It might give a chance when both dam and sire are from other countries.

Raghubhai - if there are about 11/12 runners in the Derby Sir Cecil will be around 'even money in the ring' - I repeat Pesi  stable has many quality horses not yet totally exposed .....one of them will win!

Chanakya is not sitting on the fence - He says winner is Sir Cecil & My judgement says tough race- S.C will get beaten mumbai Derby!

Well said sir

But I'm 100% sure...this SC won't win at Derby....

@ Tarana  u can go ahead with ur toss

La Rondine is on its way ....This derby belongs to a Western Indian and not Souther Indian Horse according to agreement...

Regards

@ Tarana,

Read  carefully  the  last  line of  the  hesdpost...

don't  regret  later on...

@Tesio,

Latest  researches prove  that  speed as  well  as  stamina  is  provided  by  dam nd  not  the  sire...

However, Elusive Pimpernel  is a  big  influence,  through Elusive  Trust and  her  dam  in  this case... 

Chanakya Sirji,Give us some useful Eye openers - something like this below.

Ruchi said ...
On : 18-12-2018 06:21 pm

A very interesting subject .In my view after seeing the INDIAN 2000 and win of SIR CECIL.

SIR CECIL is going to find it very very difficult to last off the 2400 mts of Mumbai

Over a mile yes SIR towers but over 2400 just forget.It may not even hold on for second spot seeing it's style if running.SIR is a one paced sort.Its front running style with no late acceleration will ensure that the great SIR CECIL will meet it's WATERLOO in February.

@ Tarana

    Whether to back or lay Sir Cecil is your decision. Before you make it, consider two points. One, C. Kaushik has himself said "I know Sir Cecil will win Indian Derby...". Two, Hall of Famer full-sister to Sir Cecil has already WON Indian Derby with SAME Roman Numbers.

    C. Kaushik loves to talk in puzzles. Whether Sir Cecil wins Indian Derby or not is speculation. Hall of Famer has won Indian Derby is fact. It would be better for C. Kaushik with his immense knowledge to explain how Hall of Famer did it.

Pesi , has too many good horses one of them will win the derby - Trophy will go to Pesi Shroffs stable!

Chanakya says the horse Sir Cecil does not have stamina.  How it can win?  He also says that he knows that Sir Cecil will win.  Then why this useless enquiry.

I do not think any punter in India wants to do a research as to how Sir Cecil can win 2400m race when it does not have stamina.  More than 80% of bettors will not care if Sir Cecil wins or not.  At probable odds of 40ps for them it is a banker in jackpot pool.  Nothing more.

Anyway, Chanakya has tried to impress us here that he takes into consideration even Roman numbers before finalising his selections.   That was not known to us.  It is time he reveals about all aspects that he takes into consideration before picking a horse after several hours of study.  We are tired of his bundlebaaz in as much as his strike rate is below the average of 33%.  

The reason for this is that none of the stallions in Sir Cecil’s pedigree, ie Win Legend, Elusive Pimpernel, Razeen, Grey Gaston and maybe even Sunday Silence are reflected in the Western centric Roman dosage system.  As such using the dosage index in India is pretty much a big waste of time as the data is incomplete 

Sir I was searching a reason to lay sir cecil today I got it thanks sir