deduction by bookmakers on withdrawal before starter's orderBy Charudatta Tophakhane | 10-Aug-2019
We punters do not get represented in decisions taken by turf clubs, especially in matters which affect us.
Racing is a game of skill -- all will agree.
We punters put in a lot of study and skill and brave all odds and pick a horse and play for place(in ring or @fixed odds)
This is a game of skill. (assumption: 8 or more horses participate)
Later, one horse gets withdrawn at the gates.
Now the horse selected by us wins (or places second).
Even if the withdrawn horse (theriotically) could have won, our place-played horse would have finished 2nd or 3rd and entitled to get the odds at which we played.
If any deduction is to be made in such case it should be made ONLY on 3rd placed horse NOT on winner or 2nd placed ones.
Deduction on all three placed horses is TOTALLY unfair.
In a game of skill, correct logic should apply.. protecting some interests should not be the intention.
The logic can be extended when two or more horses get withdrawn.
With this understanding bookies are free to quote whatever odds they deem fit and it will be up to us to take a call to play at those odds or not.
I am sure all punters will agree to this.
Please make your voice heard.
raghavan said ...On : 14-08-2019 07:57 am
One should not post comments with half knowledge!
But you are posting comment without knowing the ground reality at BNG/MY etc. You see all the five fingers are not the same. Yes. You are right. All 5 fingers are not the same. But, you are wrong in making a sweeping statement without caring to ascertain the ground reality at BNG/MYS/HYD/DEL/KOL/ etc.
If bookies at Mumbai collect 28% GST, then I salute that no non sense police officer. That police officer has brought in some clarity and order in betting. Though, I think bookies are smart and will find a way to loot the Government in the future. No body can straighten a dog's tail. But, for the time being, bookies pretend to observe the Government rules. Double thanks to the police officer!
Such police officers should be posted at all centers where there is racing. They will catch hapless illegal bookies who take bets up to 500/- secretely. But, pretend blind & deaf & dumb when several crores of legiimate revenue to Government is looted.
Transparency said ...On : 12-08-2019 10:08 pm
Agree with Deodharji to certain extent as the main connection lies with Blogs operated for fooling the gullible and misleading like currently none paying 10% as 28%GST charged now at RWITC with Mumbai Stall Bookies /FOB/Tote ,Do not know about Bangalore Mysore . So all fingers r not same and one should not post comments based on half knowledge .
P.S One regular sailing in two boats for nearly a decade and the irony is Bookies paying for it.
raghavan said ...On : 12-08-2019 09:03 pm
Right. Bookies and stake holders join hands and confuse, fool the punters. But, whether the bookies and stake holders invite you to attend races. And after entering the course, whether any gun man holds revolver pointed at your chest and compels you to bet favorite or other horse? The bookies write, overwrite, odds; they instal no hoper as favorite. They deliberately do everything possible so that you bet on wrong horse and lose. But, for their wish to materialise, you also should bet!
Why are you so much obsessed with the bookie. And why are you betting heavily on a horse that seemingly has decent chance to win? Do one thing. Take a royal oath today and bet not more than 500 or 1000 that too only at tote. Let the bookies do triple somersault; do not bet a pie with them.
If you bet at tote, the Government gets taxes, the club get revenue and of course you have to take discounted dividend. But, that is the price that you must pay. If all the punters start betting at the tote, the stakeholders will have no way to enjoy profit at your expense. Let those stake holders also bet at tote.
And most importantly, tote does not always pays you lower dividend. Some times at least it surprises you with huge bonus. Recently Al-dorado won. It paid 720/-. There are many occasion when tote dividend proves more and more attractive. Today Handsome paid 90+ for place for a tenner. But, I agree that bookies dividends are more attractive many times. That is only because of 10% tax. If bookies run their business strictly following the rules, then there will not be much difference between the two dividends.
I am not telling this because I dislike bookies. I have no enemity with them. Bookies have not eaten one rupee from me during the past 27 years. Prior to that, I was also betting with bookies; and my betting range then was 40/- , 80 and in rare instance 200/-.
Punter after punter, parrot like, speak about the dirty games, tricks that bookies employ to loot them. Arre baba, that is their business. What else you expect. Should they bring in bag load of currency and distribute to the punter? Why are you sheepishly falling in their trap? Is it because you bet at half tax! (10% tax). Is that legal? You are accessory, you are supporting to the massive fraud that bookies are indulging and coming with with sob stories after the races are over.
In the recently concluded BNG season, M/s Amruthaya was the leading bookmaker with field money 45,66,120/-. There were 188 races. That means, the leading bookmaker was collecting average bets of 24300/- per race. When there are so many bettors, who individually wager 10k, 20k, 50k or more bets per horse, the bookies pay a pittance to the club & Government. And for this state of affairs, I hold bookies responsible; and punters actively supporting them.
So, what I say is never come with tales of bookies duping you, cheating you etc. Because, in the first place you are also not at all honest. You are not ready to take lower dividend from totes. You are depriving the Government their legitimate tax. I agree that the taxation rate is too high. But, GST act is passed by the Parliament and we have no option but to obey those rules. OR do not bet even 10/-. No body will ask you to pay tax. You smoke. You pay the 28% tax. You consume liquor. You pay the 28% tax. So if you bet, you must pay 28% tax plus club commission. When punters willingly assist the bookies so that the bookies avoid or evade tax, the punters should not point fingers at the bookies or stakeholders after the races.
You should not ask bookies to function fairly. Race betting is like a war between bookies and punters. Both try to loot each other. And most of the time, the bookies always hoist winning flag.
In Military hotel you can order chicken, mutton. But not idli-sambar.
ayyarnet said ...On : 12-08-2019 08:11 am
Once upon a time Horse Racing was a game of skill. Today the situation is different. Everything depends on the will and pleasure of the Book Makers. It has become a fashion for the trainers to withdraw their horses at the last moment to help the Book Makers to claim deduction in the pay outs.. Recent results shows that this game is no more embedded with skill. May be you can say a game of GUESS. If you are lucky your guessed horsae may win. The way they change their odds I can easily say they are aware of the results in advance not only WIN but PLACE also.
They themselves create FALSE favorites to dupe the innocent puntersand mislead even place horsesalso by giving more rates Only seasoned punters only can understand their move.
Regards to all
raghavan said ...On : 11-08-2019 10:36 am
I do not agree that it is a game of skill. It is purely gambling. The fact pronounced in ruling that race betting is a sin pastime and is subjected to 28% gst. Of course, the Supreme Court has held that it is game of skill and we have no option but to agree with that. But, I am speaking on ground realities. So, if there is any contradiction between my statement & Supreme Court ruling, then only Supreme court ruling is to be relied upon.
Now, coming to your point, there are codified rules. The rules prevailing at HYD is:- If a horse that is withdrawn was quoted at odds evens or below, the bookmaker's liability is reduced by 50%. If above evens and below 4/1, then the bookmaker's liability is reduced by 25%. And the discount is 12% if the odds quoted on withdrawn horses is above 4/1 but below 10/1.
Only if the odds are quoted 10/1 or more, there will be no discount to the bookies.
If you have played place, then almost without exception the bookmakers will get discount. The only possibility is if the bookmakers have offered odds of above 10/1 for place on withdrawn horse. I do see place odds at 10/1 or more perhaps on five or six horses in an entire year!
So, when there are rules, and bookies & Stewards are following that rules, I do not think there is any scope for modified view. Question of logic and fair disposal comes only when there is no rule to settle the dispute.
p g said ...On : 11-08-2019 09:39 am
Horse racing in India is no more "A GAME OF SKILL."
It's a ploy by the clubs to argue and try to get lower GST. But actually it is a way of looting the racing public.
It is a game of crooked manipulations, as one might have witnessed just yesterday at Pune. Out of 6 races, not one race was run on merit. Results were mostly planned at the breakfast table in the morning itself.
Punters calculations right from timings, distance, jockeys penetrometers and handicapping all go for a toss, under such wrong deeds.
Withdrawals of horses right at the last minute at the gates is a well organised & planned by clubs and bookies making approx 4 to 6 lakhs in each race in this manner. Clubs get their share also from below the table from bookies.
Today, clubs do not care if the racing public cries foul, for they know that other than this, they can't do anything more.
The big ones at RWITC are fully involved in this sport going down the drain.And then they point at GST as the real culprit. Now, all other clubs seem to follow them.
Gentlemen / officials, af all clubs, please know that you are the real people responsible to ruin this sport. So don't cry foul of GST.
Be prepared to see in the near future a less number of serious players and less amounts of collections.
Chandrakant Deodhar said ...On : 11-08-2019 09:22 am
Thanks for raising this serious issue. Club & Bookies are working hand in hand. At present Rwitc is neglecting punters & not doing anything for them. Even club is not ready to listen to public grievances on any issue. Club know that punters are not united & taking full advantage of this. 99% punters are worried only about their bets, other issues/problems are not important for them. We have to approach only one person Dr Cyrus Poonawala, nobody else!
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