@ Krish,,

The headpost  is  very  relevent and  perhaps the main  reason  of  the  decline  and downhill  trend  of  Indian  racing...

While  racing  in  Hongkong  and  Singapore during  last  2  or  3  decades has improved  100 times  it  has come  down  in  iIndia also  100 times  in  last  20 to  39  years. 

Why?  

The  reason  is  known  to  those  who  have  common  sense  and  BASIC   intelligence.... blunt  statement  , yes - it  is...

All  the  baqwas   by  few regulars  put  up  here  has  no logic. 

you  go  to  a  narket - to  buy  vegetable  or  anything;  one  seller  sels  at  100 rupees, another  at  80  rupees -same  product  same  quality... from  whom  you  will buy? 

I don't  want  an  answer...

Now  look at  racing;

  A ( the  TOTE)  is  offering  Rs  12  for  your  tenner

but  B ( bookie)  is  also  offering  Rs. 13  or  Rs.  14   for  the  same  tenner...

WHAT  A  PRUDENT, INTELLIGENT, NORMAL  MAN  should  decide :

to  get  Rs.   12   for  his  tenner from  the  tote 

or

 to  get Rs. 15  from  a  bookie...

majority  of  punters  have  been  God  fearing but  none  of  them  follow  him

few sane(?)  and  some  INSANE persons  say  -  bet  on  tote even if  it  gives  low returns  compared  to  bookies....

IN  ANY  FIELD  OF  LIFE  i'VE  NEVER  SEN,  HEARD  OR  READ  THIS  TYPE  OF  STUPID ADVICE  OR  ARGUMENNT...

My  questin to  these  idiots  is  ; If  you  can  not  win   than  why complain????????????????????????

Golden Viper,

You are a senior man.  So, your words carry some weight.  

There is absolutely no necessity on your part to highlght the low payment in tote.   I am amused that you believed the initial display of probable dividends to stay at that level only till the bell rings. Of course you wagered small.  At laast be happy that you did not bet five thousand on that horse.

I played one last bet for win at tote.  I learnt that the win odds for that horse was quoted at 5.50 at Mysore (there were no bookies at BNG then).  But do you know what I got at BNG.  Not even 50%.  It was 30/- for a tenner.  

Well.  That was the turning point as far as my race betting was concerned.  I stopped betting for win / place.  I changed my bets to forecast.  I am happy with whatever little I get.  And I do not cry whenever my bets fail.

I never ask any punter to bet at tote only.  I only state my preference is only tote.  You as well as other punters are free to bet with the bookies.  

I agree that yo are at full liberty to choose between tote and bookies.  Tote give low dividends.  So, it is not right on my part to ask you to bet at tote.

BUT, I am objecting to the bookies taking free 10% of your bet as tax.  I am objecting you and other punters betting with bookies by paying 10% and thereby evading GST.  Both the bookie and punter are hand in glove regarding this fraud.  If you want to bet with bookies, I am the last person to object.  But, I only ask you to pay the prescribed tax and demand the bet slip.  Please do not cite low payout in toye to jutify your betting at 10%.

People are speaking to me in rowdy/dirty  language.  They want me to shut up.  Just think of quantum of tax that punters have avoided.  And just think of quantum of bribe they have paid to the bookies so as to avoid the GST. 

So, do not indulge in rationalising your betting with bookies.  The bookies are the greatest scoundrels in Indian racing world.  It is a pity that after so many years of non stop fraud, only some bookies in Mumbai and BNG are arrested.  At present there are no bookie at BNG.  This scenario will continue for some time.  

Let the punters bet lakhs, ten lakhs etc.  OR even more.   No one will stop them.  But, just let them understand that they should maintain decency and decorum while speaking in publuc site.  They should not try to brow beat me to silence.

Santosh,

I think, I am speaking/replying to you for the first time.  So I try to be as mild as possible.

Please do not take side with bookies.  They have cheated the punters, looted them, cheated Governments, and also cheated the clubs.

You please do not pity the bookies.  They are doing business.  Just let them do as per the law framed by the Government.  Let them demad full gst.  And in case the volume of business is not commensurate with their budget or Capital because of the high rate of gst, let them close the shop.

They take all the blame!  This is the funniest statement I have heard.  Just think of tote bettors raining abuses on tote clerks!  No baba.  No punter blames the bookies.  Punters only blame trainers/jockeys.  Some times owners.  Ver rarely their own bad luck.  Sometimes they blame stewards. Where is the need to blame the bookies. 

At BNG, people are tired of tote.  They are praying for their safe and quick return.  Wherefrom you got the idea that punters abuse the bookies!

Have I honestly paid tax on your winnings?  I have paid taxes as demanded by the Incometax/GST departments.  There is no escape.  The computer gives only the dividends after tax whenever my winnings cross 10000.  Do not say the punters are fully justified in evading the GST because GST is draconian.  Speak in general terms.  Never get personal.

Excuse me if this is not applicable.  You are buying car.  You pay tax.  You are buying cigarettes.  You pay tax.  You consume liquor.  You pay tax.  But, while betting in race you pay only 10%.  Flawed logic.

# Raghvan,

You seem to ignore the fact that bookie takes all the blame for any type of betting. You punters are comfortable because you are well guarded by the authorities. and most important thing to mention that you are not forced to come to racing... You come with all types of intensions and expect bookies to do all the legal things. Have you honestly paid tax on your earnings through betting???? its easy to blame others, friend...

Practical problems in tote example

One yr. back a place with bookies was 2,25 .tote was showing 57 for the same for the same horse So I bought rs500 tickets in tote, to  my  horror  I got 23 coming to a rate of 1.3 ! So totallystopped.  win place  bets in tote  but do play tanala at times.  

This is the real face of tote betting .Forget any GST reduction in fact there is going to be an increase of items in the lower slab to hihger ones.short fall in GST collections

So bookies  are reqjired till clubs revise their commision  on tote

Krish,

You want to hear about legal betting!  The betting scenario in all parts of the country appears same.  That is 10% tax.   And that 10% extra is used by bookies to silence anyone and everyone with authority.

That is going on for more than a decade. Now, I do not think anybody cares to know what the tax slab fixed by the Govrnment and what the club commission is.  Of course, the tote players are stoically putting up with high rate of GST.  

In this site, there are some unofficial spokespersons of Bookies.  They passionately argue that bookies are wholly justified in taking 10% only as tax, as they are paying hefty stall fees.  O K.  Let them try their best in defending the bookies.   Even if they are irritated by my writings, they can at least mind their language.  A good number among them speak indecently, use unparliamentary language.

To me all punters are equal.  Whether he bets 10/- at tote or he bets 10 lakhs with bookies is immaterial,  There are some people who bet with bookies who have truck loads of arrogance and superiority complex.

I do not blame punters.  I hold bookies only solely responsible.  But, it requires two hand to clap.  To me there is no difference between a businessman who evades tax and bookie who take bet at 10% premium. 

Policemen at Mumbai and at Bangalore have made bookies undertand the provisions of Law in a harsh manner.  They are now prostrating before the policemen and judge.  They have learnt that freedom is costlier than 10% tax.  The tax that they have avoided since more than one decade adds up to thousands of crores.  I do not know actual provisions of GST laws.  But, I think evasion of GST is a serious financial fraud and attracts a penalty of  years of rigorous imprisonment. 

The punters at Bangalore are hoping that the bookies will restart their business as quickly as possible.   I do not think bookies are eager to oblige them.

@raghavan,

I wonder how can bookies charge 10% tax legally if tax is 28%? I think you are talking about illegal betting with bookies. In 1980, I used to pay 21%  legal tax when I place bet Rs.100. I prefer to hear legal part of betting system.

Krish,

First thing.  Do not compare Indian racing with the racing at America, Japan, Australia, Great Britain etc.  

In many countries there ae no bookies at all.  Only tote or betting site.

In India there is no provision (legally)  even to do online betting.

Yes.  There is delay in disbursing the dividend at tote, whereas tote punters have to wait at least 5 minutes more.

Bookies start disbursing the moment white cone is hoisted.  So, punters who bet with bookies are seeing cash about 5 minutes earlier.

But, I do not think that is the reason for punters to favor bookies.  Bookies take tax at 10%, compared to tote punters who pay huge tax.  So punters prefer to bet with bookies till this variation exist.  

If bookies also insist the tax as per Law, then no body is at a higher advantage or disadvantage.  There is a level paying field.  You can then compare tote players and bookie players.

Munesh,

It will be dull and boring to bet at tote!  Yes.  I have heard such statemeents from too many punters.  Betting at tote is not viable if one bets for win & place.  Even SHP & THP dividends are woefully short nowaadays.  For any punter to be satisfied with the tote dividends, outsiders (5th or 6th or 7th favorites) has to win or finish 2nd/3rd.  But, whether betting with bookies are profitable?  I have my own doubt.  Bookies are not dharma-karthas to come to the race course with bag full of currency and disburse dividends to punters everyday.  

The thumb rule is you can not beat the bookies.  In every 8 days out of 10, a punter can theoretically win  a minimum of 10 lakhs from the start bet of 5500/-..  But, the ground reality is he will consider himself a damn lucky & smart if he comes out with profit of 15,000/-.  In 99% of cases, the 5500 or 11000 that he was carrying at start of the day, will get converted to few hundred rupees by the end of the day.  If you agree to this, well and good.  If you disagree also, well and good.

I do not go to race course for thrills and excitement.  I do not go there for entertainment or time pass.  I go there with the expectation of earning a couple of thousands at a risk of around 1000/-.   Some times my winnings are over 5000.  Very rarely I bet trinella or exacta (in case there is some c/f amount).

Too many, too many times my losses are 500 to 1000.  My bets are small.  300/400/500.  There may be many punters who leave that much of amount as tips to waiters.  

But, I must say one thing.  If bookies demand/insist full tax from punters, there will be some semblance of competition between the tote and bookies.

And lastly, I do not agree that all punters who are betting with bookies are earning huge profit.  In one month, they may win 2 days, break even 2 days and will be losers and big losers in the remaining 20-25 days!  

Too big letter conveying only the obvious!  Right.  You enjoy betting with bookies.  I also enjoy betting at tote.  I do not want to lose.  I want to win only.  But, there is big variation between my wants and actuals.

Is there any thrill in going to the tote counters???? Is it necessary to go all the way to the racecourse to back in the tote? What do you say Raghavan Sir?

Tote  NEVER  pays more  than  a  bookie - if  tote  pays  11 mfor  a  tenner  bookies  offer  13 or  14  for  same( perhaps  once  in  100 cases there is  no  difference  in  bookie/tote return). DO NOT    consider  returns  on  FLUKES - tote  will ALWAYS pay  MORE ON  FLUKES...

Any person  who goes  for  gambling   has  ONLY  ONE  PURPOSE - TO  WIN AND  RETURN  WITH  PROFIT by  gambling;  be  it  on  races, stock market, MATKA   OR  TOSS  OF  A  COIN!...

Those  who  claim  that  they  go  there for  entertainment,  passing  spare time, to  relax are  not  fooling  the  reader  but are cheating  themselves...

Reduce  tax  on  horse racing  to  5% , club  commission  to  2  or  3  %  -  the  turnover  will  jump  by  50  times , may be  100 times; the  return  to  govt.  and  club  WILL  INCREASE,  may be  5  to  10  times;  because  small (Rs. 10  to 100) and  middle  level (Rs. 500 to 5000)  punters  will  return  to tote . They constitute  90%  of  the  punters...(contd.)

The tote operators are not professionals. At any given time half the totes are not manned.  The operators have a picnic of 15 minutes after every race. The clubs take no steps to discipline these errant operators and the supervisors have no control.

Indian totes follow one system unlike US racing that system is called 'Cheating'.

Hence horse players prefer bookies in my opinion.

Exactly.  The mess is even more if there are 2 centres operating at the same time or in a gap of 15 minutes.  This is definitely Advantage Bookies.