@Raghavan,

When one knows the law, there is no requirement of quoting case laws.  If you want a case law, go to a lawyer and pay him by the hour.  

Knowing a law is different thing and providing case laws for each and everything is different matter.

If you cant understand, simple english words like "totallity" then I am sure, quoting case laws will also be of no help.

But let me explain what you ask.  It simply means that total income from horse racing will be taxable ( i.e. total receipts from tote). And no reduction in income would be allowed on the basis of losses suffered on other races.

I think, you know that income tax is applicable in india.  If yes, can you provide any case law which says that income tax is applicable in India?

I just mean to say that knowing a law is important and not everything is proven only by case laws.

@Cry Baby-

Case laws can get created only if an ambiguous or incorrect law or judgement gets challenged in the court. It is not a prerequisite for proving a case. So stop harping on it. Try to get that into your thick skull if you can. It will be difficult, I know but see if you can push it in.

I had told you to REFER THE MATTER TO COMPETENT LOCAL TAX CONSULTANTS. Have you not understood that yet? How many times do you need the same thing to be hammered in? Here you will not accept any explanation from anybody because YOU DON'T WANT TO.  You wouldn't understand it either going by your GRASPING POWER OR MORE CORRECTLY, LACK OF IT. What can anybody expect from a 10% strike rate / 40 years addict? 

If you want to be the most law abiding citizen that you are trying to project yourself to be, you will have to be PROACTIVE and find out your own liability from the consultants. You will have to spend some money but do it. Don't be stingy. You wouldn't get anywhere by refusing to accept the reality on an open forum. The more you keep denying your liability, the more you will be exposing your charade. Don't waste everybody's time because of your bull headed obstinacy.

Hyderabad Race Season is commencing on 26 th July.It will be interesting to watch how they will interpret the recent judgement of Karnataka High Court.Although they are not a party to the proceedings , there is a fundamental question involved viz : should one deduct GST on the tote collection.If they continue as before ,it will be construed as contempt of court ,unless there is a pending appeal and stay order.

Dancing dynamite,

I had asked you to highlight some speaking orders from court, tribunal or arbitrator regarding tax liability.

It should have been answered in that thread only.  Instead, for reasons best known to you, you have replied to me in some other thread.  (Mistakes that punters make by Ab-Delhi).  That too quoting the letter that I had asked Spade!  

After 18 days, you have come with the reply that "you do not have case law" !   In any case that is far better than the swear words used by Spade.

Yet, you say all  "winnings taken in totality without deduction of losses!"  When speaking in public sites like horsetalk, please avoid legal  jargons. Be specific.  What does "totality" means in your sentence.  

It seems you agree with Spade.  That  is10/-, 20/- income in one or two races in a year also should be declared and taxes paid.  Even though he might be in loss of  one lakh or still more in that assessment year. 

So, you can not quote case laws.  You can not quote any income tax rules to that extent.  And, you say you are talking about Law!  Bravo,  

Thank God, income tax department is not running as per your or my understanding.  It has its own experts, Government of India instructions and case laws to guide them.

Your bland statements does not impress me.    

PS:  I am answering in  this thread because I believe that  IIM Blue & Spade view this thread regularly.

If  the  tote  deduction comes  down  to  12.5%  from  more  than  35%, as  per  SK Sagar, then  return  from  tote  will be  comparable  to  bookies odds. This  will  make  bookies to  improve their  odds to  remain  in  business...

A very  good opportunity to  punters to  recover some  lost  ground...

Let  us  wait  and  watch...  

Buddy,

So, you were interested in pulling down me.  And, you have the satisfaction of pulling me me down enough and there is no need to continue further.  

Strictly speaking, your satisfaction is misplaced.  I have not changed; and I have not been pulled down.  I continue to stay where I was about 4 years back.  Tote bettor, low strike rate, winner of one out of 7 or 8 bets.  Also, I am sharing my thoughts regularly in horsetalk.  My posts are liked by some, disliked by many.  That was the position earlier too.  

I do not tip.  Nor do I comment & criticise any tipster.  To be frank, I was not seeing any tips at all.   But, you asked my opinion about your tips during 2018-19 Mumbai season.  It was an unusual request from any tipster.  No one had asked me as to what I feel about their selections.

And, it was a horrible disappointment when I saw your tips.  Most of them favorites or newspaper selections.  And then you were bragging that your betting range was in lakhs on a routine basis.  And, you were speaking of the credit line extended to you from multiple bookies.  And the funniest part was bookies were allowing you to carry forward the liabilities upto one lakh indefinitely while promptly paying you the dividends on your win bets.

You have admitted that you lost a big portion of your earlier gains and were forced to take retirement from punting.  In fact you squandered all your cash balance to bookies before quitting as a punter.  Yet, you were tipping.  Sometimes mentioning your bets were 3000/6000 etc.  I can never forget your tips on Pune derby day.  You had tipped three paisa favorites of which one was withdrawn, one finished 4th and the third one quoted 50ps for win just saved the place money!

You were not owning up such losses.  In fact you were saying rather sheepishly that you did not visit the race course.

No one believes such bluffs.  Nowadays, for betting with bookies, one need not be present in race course.  He can bet whether he is in Assam or Kerala or California.  

I also decided to expose your bluffs, lies & half truths.  I was repeatedly asking your net worth.  But, you refused to answer such trap questions.

Whether I have succeeded or not, I do not know.  And, I do not care either.  In horsetalk site, the punters share their experience.  They slam jockeys for deliberately not allowing their mounts to run on merit; they slam trainers or owners because they unleash doosras, theesras.  The reactions thereon should be sincere.

No one gains phootee kowdee by being arrogant.  No one should use this site for self glorification.  You and Chanakya repeatedly violated this aspect.  Chanakya says he is a winner in spite of betting  on 20 horses a day.  And you brag that you are a big big winner.  

I decided to expose you two.  That is all.

So, you have decided to not address any post to me in future.  A belated decision from you.  But, better late than never.  I welcome your decision.  It is a good riddance.

3 -4 yrs back I knew you were small time and not  worth talking to on racing matters - but I had to respond to your postings -  I think I have done more then enough to show your cunning nature  - not required now to further pull you down ....anymore. 

Buddy,

Your 10/6/21,  7.34 pm:

You say that I am KG fail.  I think you have passed with distinction double post graduate exams.  No problem.  Your master's degrees however will not come to your rescue inside the race course.  The bookies will see that you lose even your shirt..and that bookie may be intermediate drop out.

Inside the race course, a KG fail & a doctorate are same.  PUNTER.  

You say you lost huge cash to bookies.  But, you repeatedly claim that the money you lost is from the winnings in early part of your betting career.

And I can not verify whether you really won.  So, you can claim you won several crores and out of that a portion only you lost.   If it pleases you you can even claim that you won 100s of crores.

You see Mr Buddy, I do not know how many years you were active in the race course; I can not even verify, whether you have really taken retirement from betting, leave alone your profit claims.  The only thing that I believe is you spent some amount on your son's education.   I do not give credence to your claim of big big wins in the race course.  If you have won, then enjoy; if not post another letter about your big big wins.

"If I was defeated/lost to bookies, I would be cursing them.  Is'nt it?

I expect the Tote deduction to be 12.5 % in case of WIN, SHP,and PLACE bets, and 37.5 % in Forecast, Quinella, Tanala, Exacta bets and 42.5 % in Jackpot, Mini Jackpot, and Treble bets.

CHEERS

Chanakya,

You have stopped recognising my existence?  Well and good.  

I will be repeatedly raking up your claim of place dividend on Malavika that finished 3rd in  a six horse field.  A man with 45+ years opf betting behind him now desperate to claim profit on the place bet on Malavika!  Surely, there can not be any punter who has indulged in  such indiscretion!

If you have decided not to recognise my existence that is all right with me.  On the contrary, if you decided to recognise my existence, that is also OK with me.  Horse racing may be halted because of corona.  But it is not at all dependent on who recognises whom or who does not recognises whom.

You support IIM Blue, Spade etc.  You are already supporting Buddy.  I am sure the new team whom you are supporting will reciprocate. 

Buddy,

"Small time gambler not worth talking to..."

Then do not talk to me!  Extremely simple..  

You were betting one lakh, two lakh,  five lakh &  may be 10 lakh also.  My bets were average 1000 per horse in zamana and presently average less than 1000 per race day.  I have stated this too often.  A grand mismatch between we two. Yet you persisted.  Laughing at my obsession nwith tote!

And it  took you more than 3 or 4 years to learn that I am small time gambler!  And not worth talking to.  Thank God, at least you realised it now. 

IIM Blue:

So, you have decided to stop arguing with me.  I had asked you the same thing.   On 10/6/2021,  3,46pm. I had said   "Let us be in  disagreement mode till the clubs start implementing the Court Order".   I do not believe in counting the chickens before they are hatched.

This is not a 1000 cr question to either you or me or anybody else.  Karnataka High Court has given the ruling.  Let us be patient and wait for implementation of the Court Order.  Presently there are no races.  Whether races will begin during August or November or in the year 2022 no body knows.  

So, be clam, be patient till races resume.

100s of punters who bet with bookie have expressed their displeasure because I am too critical of bookies.  They were fiercely defending the bookies for the past 9 years.  You have joined that force.  Let another batch of 4 or 5 punters start supporting you.  Absolutely no difference to me.

The equation as it stands today is : "Bookies have not stopped taking 10% bets.  I have not stopped criticising the bookies.  And punters like you have not stopped defending the bookies".    

Hamam mein sab nange hain.

Spade,

I have asked case law.  You have no answer.  You are saying the answer to my question on 30/5/21 is given by you on 27/5/21.   

In your letter dated 27/5/21, I am not finding any case laws highlighted.  So, you are trying all this rubbish just to wriggle out of awkward position because of my question.

I am asking you for the third time.  If you have case law, then quote it.  Avoid foolish talks that you have already answered on 27/5/21.   

More & more you shout, more and more you will expose yourself.   

I have absolutely no problem if you continue to scream.  You can scream for next 10 days, or  next 10 months.

@Poor poor cry baby-

Try to exercise whatever little grey matter you might have. I know it is terribly difficult for you but give it a shot if you can.

Silence can be deafening only for those who can HEAR, not for those who are already DEAF. On top of it, looks like you need to change your glasses. I had already answered you question on the same thread in the second para of my post on 27.5.21. Now don't ask me how I answered your question before you asked it on 30.5.21. Try to read and understand it. It is going to be painfully difficult - doesn't matter even if you have to crane your neck and the grey matter squeaks - and yes, first clean your glasses and don't ask me the same question again and again. Of course, it is a tall ask for somebody who has a strike rate of 10 % after 40 years of addiction and still asks juvenile questions like 'Do punters win?' and 'Do bookies lose?' Even the tea seller at the race course will know better. Find better ways of being in the news.

Your not find anything after google search is to be expected - in fact it would have been shocking if you had found something. Poor cry baby, you have to be told that it is your responsibility to find out your liability. Those are the three fingers that are pointing at you when you point one at the bookies. You should be grateful that somebody has made you aware. You are in no position to take a moral high ground and preach others. It is worse than a cat drinking milk with its eyes closed. At least the cat doesn't point fingers at others.

You want me to again answer your question which I had already answered. How long do  you want others to spoon feed you? IIMBLUE spoon fed you about the court ruling. Dancing Dynamite spoon fed you about income tax. Others are spoon feeding you on your juvenile questions. Even a bull headed dud has to start using his own spoon sometime.

Raghu- you tore your own mask of being goody goody honest person -and behind the mask we found your true worth ....small time gambler not worth talking about - 

IIMBLUE,

It is an epoch making judgement and  I  can  assure  it  will  be (HAS TO  BE)  upheld by  Supreme  court also because  of  the  basic  flaw  in  the approach  of  Karnataka  govt. There  are  shameless  people  who  ALWAS   try  and most  of  the  time  succeed  in  diverting  from  the  main  topic  just  to  remain  in  limelight. I've  stopped  recognising  their (?) existence; it  will  be  better  if  you  also  do  the  same because the reader gains  nothing except the  two - him and (?)  -to  survive...

The  heading  is  about  a  wrong interpretation of  law and  not 'thata thaiyya'  which somebody is  trying  to  remain  in  'limelight'...

@Spade ,

No purpose is going to be served by arguing with the "cry baby with half taxed brain" .Let me come to the real issue.

The Turf Authorities of India did a great disservice to the betting community by harping on the wrong issue --viz : trying to reduce the GST from 28% slab to 18% slab.

They never highlighted the real issue --that the tote collection is held by the clubs in TRUST and it is returned back to punters even if by compulsory solving.That approach would have devided the betting in to two camps--betting with bookies and betting on tote.And no one can argue that bookies hold the punter money in TRUST.The wedge is not created now.It was always there.Now the court has put its seal of approval.

Except BTC all other Clubs love Bookies and hate Tote.It fell up on the BTC to take the right approach and succeed.

Luckily for the GST authorities , the races are not ON now.It would have created an embarssing situation for them .I could take a guess --BTC Tote tax would be 12.8% (10%commission plus gst 28%), while with Bookies it would be 28%.,if the races were being held right now.

I am sure ,those who misinterpreted the provisions law will not be brought to book.The punters had grouse against the system and now they stand vindicated.Well done BTC.!

Buddy,

So, you lost in the last lap of your betting career.  My sympathies. 

So you are keeping touch with your betting days by browsing racing sites.  Nothing wrong in that.  Continue.  You are still devoted to bookies.  

Just bombard this site with your heroics during the early part of your betting career and be done with that.  Why are you passing irresponsible comments about my loss?  Have I ever asked you 1,000/- loan? 

And the unpardonable act is your siding with Chanakya.  That fellow had shamelessly claimed place dividend on Malavika that finished 3rd out of 6 runners.  If you want to question me, then no problem.  But why have you sided with Chanakya in jointly attacking me?  As if Chanakya is not capable of answering me!

You are telling that I should grow up and bet with bookies.  Have you ever asked Chanakya to graduate to bet 10k or more.  (Even today he is betting only 2k).  If you ask him to bet high, you will definitely hear nice music.  

I am happy, I tore apart the mask of two big big liars.  Buddy & Chanakya.

IIM Blue,

Humility?  For being poor in racing knowledge?  I had a hearty laugh because of this one word from you.   They say laughter is the best medicine.  If I have high racing knowledge, will that help me getting the post of CMD or other top executive post in any MNC?  

Your racing knowledge will be put to severe test during those terrible 4 or 5  hours in a day.  I have seen several people who have become millionaires because of their vast & superior knowledge.  (Of course they were crorepathis earlier)

People who used to say they were Brahmas, Vishnus etc in  racing knowledge have been mercilessly torn apart & thrown away by the bookies.  And those bookies may be just intermediate just drop outs.

I have no humility.  I know my racing knowledge is poor.  My strike rate is proof of that.  But, why should you worry about my racing knowledge or lack of it?  Am I asking you to bet on a particular horse or not bet on a particular horse?  Or am I asking you Rs. 5000/-  to fund my betting weakness?  

I refuse to learn.  My only prayer to Almighty is "do not improve my racing knowledge".  I bet minimum, collect modest dividend if my bet passes and if my bet fails,  which is too often, then I will say "goli maro"!

I have seen men with superior racing knowledge earning several millions daily.  Perhaps you are one among them.  My heartiest congratulations.   

In this regard, it is also necessary on my part to say that I have also seen men with superior knowledge who blow away 1 or 2 lakh rupees daily.  These men with superior knowledge must be thanking their luck that  currently there are no races in any part of the country.  A huge huge savings for them.  One of the best positive side effects of corona disease.

My strike rate will go down further!  You are really witty. Today, I am saying that my strike rate is below 15.  If my strike rate goes down further, I will say it is below 10%.  Still lower...then I will say below 5%, 3%, 2% etc.  Why do you worry about my strike rate? 

"You should take the matter with club, courts, tax authorities..."

I am believing the system that has checks & balances.  There were several raids at BNG, MYS, PUN & MUM where bookies were caught.  You can also google search & find out yourself.  Of course I do not know what happened to those bookies subsequently.   That is all.  I have no intention to do a Amitabh Bachchan, Rajnikanth etc.  

For your information, there were no bookies at BNG for too many race days during 2019-20 winter.  People were forced to buy tote tickets and many big big bettors had to fall in line.   There were no bookies during 2020-21 winter.  People were going to Mysore on daily basis.  

"I should not be obsessed with 10% tax, half tax"!  

To whom you are saying this?  To Raghavan?  Please do not take such troubles.  On the contrary, you please resist the temptation to advise me what happens if I continue with negative attitude.

I DO NOT WORRY WHETHER YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE.  IT IS THE BOOKIES WHO HAVE LOOTED PUNTERS, CHEATED CLUB & GOVERNMENT AND HAVE RUINED THE SPORT BEYOND REPAIR.  

If you have soft corner for bookies, that is well and good.  But, do not ask me to ignore, gloss over the misdemeanor of the bookies.

IIM Blue,

This is regarding the letter from Spade addressed to you.

*****

"when you point a finger at someone, remember that there are three fingers pointing back at you"

"dancing thaiya thacka and screaming hysterrically should be avoided while speaking in a public site".

I had said above two lines to Spade.  Seems he has not understood.  People with lower index of IQ will find it difficult to understand simple English.  One can not help that.

I had asked Spade one question.  That was on 30/5/21 .  The question was regarding tax liability on winnings from races.  Spade argued that every win amount must be treated in isolation and tax should be paid.   Previous or subsequent loss does not absolve a punter of his liability.  I had asked Spade to quote some case  law by a Judge of Court or Tribunal.  

There is deafening silence from Spade.  Quite unusual.  Earlier he was eloquent on the subject.  Even I also google searched for any possible case law based on which he is speaking so triumphantly.  Could not find one.

Today is 12th June.  So, Spade has no answer &/or still searching one.   Or consulting a tax expert.  Anyway I can temporarily at least take satisfaction on the point that I have shot to hell his sweeping statement on tote players.

I will wait for his answer.  He says I may find it difficult to understand.  Does not matter.  Let him  answer that question.  

@IIMBLUE-

As expected cry baby has reacted to your post with in ususal insolent, aggressive and browbeating manner. Poor cry baby has once again missed the concept which you have tried to explain with the example of carried over pools. He says he has never seen win pools, shp pools and place pools getting carried over. Cry baby has to be further explained that the principle is not limited only to carried over pools. The tote collection in each and every race except for fixed odds betting is held in trust by the club on behalf of the winning punters from the time the betting is closed for the race till the time the dividend are disbursed. Obviously there was no need for the GST council to create two slabs. This court ruling or rather the petitioner's argument has created the differentiation between tote betting and the betting with the bookies with regard to the amount on which GST has to be applied and not with regard to the rate at which GST has to be applied. Even the fixed odds betting on tote will not get the benefit of this ruling. Poor bird brained cry baby with 40 years of betting addiction has to be explained till the last alphabet. Even then he wouldn't be able to absorb it. If at all bookies business becomes unviable and they wind up, poor cry baby's strike rate will plummet down to 1% because he wouldn't know what to back.

Cry baby now wants me to answer some of his posts but the answers will never penetrate his cerebral structure even if you try to hammer them in with a sledgehammer. The hatred for bookies has permanently damaged his brain wiring. The petty thief will remain in his cocoon underdeveloped even after 40 years of addictive betting. Horse talkers had never seen a bull headed frog splashing in his narrow well. Now they can.

@Raghavan ,

You do not have the humility to accept that your knowledge on racing matters is very poor.And worse , you refuse to learn.I cannot understand why you have poke your nose on every issue with the half tax sticker beneath it and waste punter time.You should be taking up the matter with the Club , tax authorities and courts, if you are serious.

No doubt your strike rate is next to nothing.I assure you ,it will go down further ,if you keep up this negative attitude

Raghu KG fail - if i lost a chunk of money to the bookies in the end I have also said it was from my winning over the years - so overall i am okay - you have to take my full statement or call the full statement a lie - silly to keep taking a part and twisting it around - if i was defeated/lost to bookies i would be cursing them is'nt it . man you are funny.

IIM Blue,

"I am unable to understand the concept & confusing the issue".

But are you confused?  Certainly not.  I do not believe that you are confused.  Why should you be bothered if I am trying to confusing you?

Are you such an innocent, thumb sucking baby that you will be confused if I made an attempt?

You are having strong views on one issue.  I am having strong views that is at variance with yours.  Are we arguing a Rs. 2000 cr litigation before a Supreme Court Judge?  My view may be wrong.  OR your view may be wrong.  OR we both may be wrong.  Why should you be so much excited about what I say or what I do not say.  I expressed my view.  You expressed your view.  Let us both sign disagreement and close the case and wait for actual implementation of the Court Order.

Whether bookies are party to the case or not does not matter.  I firmly believe that there can not be one set of rules /slabs to the tote & another set of rules / slab towards bookies.  Why should you worry about my understanding or what you call as misunderstanding?  I will revise my views if necessary if & when the judgement is implemented and I personally satisfy about the correct position.  Certainly, I believe, that does not hurt you.  Then why this rantings?

"Bookies do not care about my existence!  But, I require bookies for my existence."  "I am obsessed with half tax bet/s"!

O K. I am pleased that you have such strong views that are contrasting with my views.  If what I say is wrong and you can see the issue in proper perspective, then do not make any attempt to silence me.  You convey your views in a forceful way.  Do not indulge in boorish talks.  

"The pathological hatred against bookies has damaged me"!

Let me make an attempt to correct the misunderstanding.  From where you get the idea that I am hating bookies?  They are my best friend/s.  I will finalise my choice only after seeing the odds quoted by the bookies.

You see.  I mainly bet on forecast pool.  I have to locate a winner and a runner also correctly.  There are some wild remarks by your friend Spade about my paltry strike rate.  It has never touched 15%.   Let him try solving the pool.  He will understand what I mean.  But, to you I am saying that I finalise on the horse that finishes  1st & 2nd only after seeing the odds by bookies on all horses.   So, without bookies I am at as much disadvantage as any other punter who has bundles of currency to bet.

I am only against their taking bets at 10%.  So, you are agitated that I write my views so openly. so harshly.  O K.  I am speaking like this for nearly 9 years.  Let us continue such talks for another decade!

Decorum and dignity must be maintained in a public site.  If I speak against bookies, then no punter has any locus standi to question what I write.

Buddy,

So, you make mistakes because you do not keep track of your earlier posts and also you do not read your earlier posts.  Absolutely no problem.  You are not writing IAS examination. 

Even I also do not keep track of my earlier posts.  I have some fixations.  (1) Bookies are doing financial impropriety, economic fraud by taking bets at 10%.  (2) All punters are losers.  When I say all punters I actually mean 98% punters.  (3) The exotic, multileg pools are too tough and most of the time a punter end up with failed bets.  But, these exotic bets and multileg pools are cheapest.  With 500/- I can buy forecast tickets in 2 races costing 250/- each.  Whereas bets in win/place costs 1,000/- to 10,000/-.   

Now, you made the mistake.  90% times, the dividend that bookies pay is higher than what one gets at tote.  Take your own case.  You lost all your cash balance to bookies.   In spite of getting higher dividend in 90% cases. 

Today you are the 1st rank candidate to enrol as successor to Ahobila Mutt jeer,  Chinmayananda,  Udupi pejavar swameeji, Sri Raghavendra mutt , Sringeri Sharada Peetha etc.  Your knowledge in philosophy is breath taking.  I may be a big zero in philosophy.  But, I always appreciate philosophical knowledge.  

Munesh,

You are not the only one.  In fact, 90% of punters desire to bet with bookies.  Perhaps that percentage may be still higher.

Nothing wrong in that.  I think you are a punter based at city other than Bangalore.  At BTC, there was frequent police raids and bookies were not to be seen for many race days during winter 2019-20.  For winter 2020-21 there were absolutely no bookies.  

Of course illegal bookies were running the show.  The Central Crime Branch police have arrested several bookies who are trying to accept bet illegally.

Buddy, 

"Main market is outside.  Yes.  And  large scale betting happens outside".

Let the outside markets start at 10pm previous night or 24 hours before handicaps are announced.  It makes no difference.

Let the betting outside be in trillions.  I have no objection. I have no figures to compare.  But, my gut feeling is cricket betting is several 100 times more than horse race betting.  That happens outside only.  I mean, it is not legal to accept the bets on cricket.

I desire that inside the race course, rules must be obeyed by bookies. 

When they are getting several crores outside, why should they worry about relatively small few lakhs inside the race course?  

*******

"It is always profitable to bet with bookies!   Though in 10% cases, bookies may be defeated by tote".  Well.  You yourself has confessed that you lost the huge cash balance in your possession forcing you to take retirement.  Then why this reverence to bookies?  

There is no difference whether I play with bookies or tote if the horse that I bet loses.  O K.  It is only in respect of winning bets that you consider the dividends paid by bookies are higher.  Too many punters have turned paupers by betting with bookies on this logic.  And, you can see your own track record for proof.  

Spade,

So, if winnings are more than 10k, the club deducts TDS.  And if winnings are less than 10k, I should voluntarily remit income tax.  Even if the winnings are as low as 10/- also, then I have to pay income tax.

I would like you to revisit the thread "life becomes boring"  dated 18/5/2021 from Hussain Mirza.  I have written 2 posts there that are similar regarding the income tax liability.

Of course my grasping power is low.  You speak as if you are authority on the subject "income tax due from winnings on horse race".  Let me hear what you have to say on those two posts dated 30/5/2021 from me addressed to you.  

Dancing thaiya thacka and screaming hysterically should be avoided.  Even if you are fully satisfied that your understanding is 100% perfect, you can still convey your ideas calmly, forcefully.  

On the other hand, if you feel rhetoric is the best possible way to react to my posts, I have absolutely no desire to calm you.  You can definitely shout with even higher intensity.  

You are not the first punter to defend bookies.  You will not be the last either.   Everytime I speak against bookies, some punter will surely rush to medical shop/s for buying burnol.

You may be under the impression that I am at fault and will be on defensive.  Well.  I do not accept or agree to your interpretation.  Perhaps my understanding is faulty.  Perhaps your interpretation is wrong.  I would like to see the observation of a tribunal judge, court judge or appellate authority.   So, highlight the case laws that support your view.  Certainly income tax department is not running as per my understanding or your understanding.  It has its own tax laws. Government of India instructions, well settled case laws that guide them.

Spade,

So, IIM Blue can grasp your ideas.  No problem.  Grasping or not grasping IIMBlue's  ideas is not a million rupee contest.  If  you are satisfied that IIM Blue's  IQ index is better than mine, then you are welcome to have intellectuial discussion with IIM Blue hereafter.

Humorous?  That bookies do not even care what I write?  Absolutely no problem.  It is punters like you who desire to be in good books of bookies jump in  their defence.   So, I am writing like this about bookies for more than   8-9 years.  Bookies do not bother.  They have not stopped accepting bets at 10%.   But, punters are rushing to medical shop for buying burnol.   

Punters desire that I should gloss over or ignore bookies misdemeanor.  Too many punters have tried to silence me.  So, bookies will take care of me if they consider my letters as nuisance.  Well.  I do not know how old you are.  Try such talks with your nursery going daughter or grand daughter.

In BNG, there were no bookies for too many race days during winter 2019-20.  And too many punters who were betting with bookies as if it is badge of honour were force to bet at tote/s.  

*******

You are arguing that petty thief can not and should not question big thief.  Well.  I diagree with such a concept.  I believe what I have stated is well settled principle in jurisprudence.

******

@Raghavan ,

You are unable to understand the concept and only confusing issues.Your pathological hatred for the Bookmakers , has damaged you ,and you are unable to see the issues in their proper perspective.But one point I give   in ---you need bookmakers for your existence but unfortunately, they donot know that you exist !

It is the Court Judgement that has made the distinction between the TOTE and the BOOKMAKERS.If the Court decision has to be implemented ,the CLUB will have to make that distinction.GST commission can do nothing about it unless it obtains a stay from Supreme Court.I doubt even the higher court will give relef because the hapless punters money has been taken away for 4 good years , by interpreting the provisions wrongly (taxing the betting collection instead of club commission).Of course that amount is as good as gone.

Bookmakers , are not party to this case.If they want any relief , they will have to go the court separetely.There are no grounds for treating them AT PAR with the Club.I take it that , it is curtains down , on bookmaking as a profession.

Mr.Raghavan  talk on the issue.,Do not bring in half tax into everything .It seems ,you have nothing to offer anything positive or constructive on any issue , so you will go on and on .

Buddy,

I do not worry if there are bookies outside the race course.  At BTC, inside the race course there were no bookies during 2020-21 winter.  There were no bookies during many race days during 2016-17, 2017-18 either.  Bookies were conspicuously absent during 2019-20 winter season on many occasions.  If you can locate a bookie outside the race course, then you can happily place your bets.  Who is stopping you?

31 bookies or their assistants were arrested because they were taking bets illegally at Pune.  OUTSIDE THE RACE COURSE.  Police raided at several locations.  News in Indian express 13-12-2020.  So, there are some no non sense police officers still in service.  

Strike rate may be rubbish to you.  Many others may agree with you.  But, for me it is one parameter to judge whether a punter is losing or winning.  There may be other parameters also.  

Without book!makers it will be like eating stale food

Srinivas Varadarajan

What the BTC will do or will not do is to be seen hereafter.  It is good news that the 2nd wave is getting tamed.  We are not seeing two lakhs or 3 lakhs fresh cases. 

If BTC desires to bring back tote to its erstwhile glory days, it should not care to promote fixed odds bets.  Tote should be strengthened.  But, all these talks are rather premature.  The GST coucil has to gracefully accept the ruling of High Court first.  It has looted the punters for nearly 4 years.

@Raghavan-

You say you are not able to understand what I want to convey when I say that the very premise on which the petitioner's argument is based cannot be applied to betting with the bookmakers. I can almost hear your brain creak when you say that. I know - it is so difficult to understand for you. On the other hand, IIMBLUE immediately understood what I wanted to convey and in fact he broke it up and elaborated further. Even then you could not grasp. It's ok. Don't feel bad. GRASPING is not your strength - that I have already conceded. Same was the case with income tax, Dancing Dynamite immediately understood what I had said but you could not. On top of it you heckled him out in your usual brash manner. No doubt I am cruel to expect too much from somebody who has a strike rate of 10 % after 40 years of  betting.

'The computer disburses only after withholding the taxes due.' Another bloomer. TDS is deducted if the payout is more than 10k. What does it mean? It shows two things - 1. That in principle income from betting is taxable and 2. Only a fraction of the tax payable is deducted at source if the payout is significant i.e. more than 10k. Anyway I should not have expected you to GRASP it. It is too taxing for your poor brain.

'When you point a finger at me, three fingers are pointing at you.' So philosophical but that is exactly what happens when you point your finger at the bookies - a petty thief pointing a finger at a big thief whom he envies but can't emulate. Poor petty thief. Anyway, it has nothing to do with the quantum of penalty. A thief petty or otherwise, loses the moral previlege to point a finger at another thief. Of course, here agains it is too much to expect you to GRASP this finer point.

'It really amuses me that while the bookies maintain a stoic silence.....'. Hah hah! You really fancy yourself don't you? How humorous can you get? The bookies don't even care whether you exist or not. If ever they were to think that you were a serious nuisance, you wouldn't know where to hide. Of course, poor baby, this is also too much for you to GRASP.

Poor cry baby could only achieve a strike rate of 10% after 40 years. When he can't GRASP even the elementary concepts how can he bear the torture of being exposed to advanced concepts? All he can do is to try hard to impress the newcomers with his juvenile topics, conveniently pointing fingers at the bookes who are totally oblivious to his existence and blaming the stewards and the race clubs now and then.

IIM Blue,

As far as tote is concerned, I have not seen any win pool, shp pool or place poll getting carried over.  There were sometimes payout as high as 1200/- or more for a tenner for win pool, shp pool.  The one and only reason why I repeatedly say that sometimes the tote payout beats bookies fair & square.

So, in tote the win pool will be c/o if no body has bet on that.  But, bookies pocket entire bet amount.  This difference I was well aware.  

But, did not stated that in my post.  So you have caught & bowled me on that omission.  

So, you are right on that count.  But, I still maintain that gst council has not created two different set of rules / different set of slabs regarding bet at tote & bet with bookies.  You seem to be satisfied that the ruling by the High court is applicable only to tote bets.  O K.  Let us wait & see.  

betting outside goes on from 10 in the night till horses are being stalled last minute - the betting which happens in the ring and tote combined is way smaller then the betting outside - main market is outside ....

I keep making mistakes because I do not reread my posts before posting - point 1] actually -90% of the time bookies win/place odds are better then tote - and 10% time it may be better on tote because you backed it with bookie -back it on tote and the payout will crash - come down. 

@ Mr.Raghavan,

Now the BTC may go for more Fixed tote counters and Eliminate the Bookies punters need not pay any tax. Because I have not seen any owner betting with the bookies at the bookies ring. they bet outside that too previous day.

"A petty thief begrudging a big thief, because the petty thief has not got what it takes to become a big thief".

In a civilised country, small time mischief makers are jailed for one day or week or two weeks.  Whereas big time hard crore criminals will be jailed for one year to 10 years.  In the same manner, a tax evader may be asked by income-tax department to pay up the tax due with interest if the tax liability is just a few thousand.  Whereas for big time tax evaders, the department may ask the defaulter to pay IT due + interest + penalty (which may be 100% of the tax evaded).

And such an approach is based on sound principles of jurisprudence.

You seem to hold different view.  Continue with same mindset.  Absolutely no problem.  

Mr.Raghavan,

I am surprised that a seniorand seasoned punter like you is telling that there is NO DIFFERENCE between betting at tote and betting with bookmaker.

In a hypothetical case , say the collection at tote is 1 lakh rupees and there are no winning tickets , the entite amount (less GST etc) is carried over.It belongs to the punter a, the club holds it in tTRUST and adds it back in some other race.

The same 1 lakh rupees ,it collected by a bookmaker and there are no winning card ,the Bookmaker is simply going to take it home(less GST etc).THIS AMOUNT BELONGS TO HIM AND ONLY HIM.See the difference ?

Raghu - 1]90%of the time win / place odds better on tote 2]you can bet small and big amount with bookies =big amount on tote are rare bets 3] you say there wont be bookies I can assure you bookies will be every where- in the course outside the course on the phone .4] strike rate -, who the hell has the time time to calculate all that 'rubbish' it will differ everyday ,different odds will also make a difference - one just looks at won or lost - no punter cares about strike rate - strike rate with even money and strike rate with 2 to 1 would mean different amount in the pocket cannot judge on that.

Spade,

Betting with bookmakers & bedtting at tote.

I do not know what difference is there.  A tote clerk who receives bet from punters punches the number in computer and gives you a ticket mentioning the amount wagered.  In fixed odds tote, the ticket will also mention the odds.  A bookie takes your money and issues you a ticket mentioning the horse name (in shorthand), amount you wagered and odds.  So, what difference?  Only thing is that bookie gives you ticket mentioning 150 as your bet amount when actually your bet is 5500.

So, I am not able to understand what you want to convey when you say that the very premise on which the petitioner's agrument is based can not be applied to betting with bookmakers.  At least GST council has not made two different sets of rules regarding betting with bookies & betting at tote.

You are telling that my post is "rhetoric".  O K.  My pointing out the wrong doings of bookies is rhetoric to you.  What you expect from me?  A song in praise of bookies?

Naveen Prabhakar,

"In tote one can not bet heavily"!

Now, with pandemic scare, we do not know when the races will begin.  I do not see any chance of racing before November.  And, even if races start, the club may take its own time to decide about bookies.  If you are from BNG, then be prepared for racing without bookies till April 2022 at least.

There were no bookies at BTC from NOV 2020 to April 2021.

Spade,

We are talking about the gst provisions in betting.  How do you say cheating by bookmakers is irrelevant?  I can not understand your logic.  Relevant or irrelevant, I am speaking reality.

Bookies are indulging in half tax for more than a decade.  (even earlier also they were indulging in half tax on a limited scale).  It really amuses me that while bookies maintain a stoic silence, people like you shout at me!  I am speaking about the mischief of bookies for the past 8 to 10 years.  

"Punters also cheat without paying income tax!".  You are totally wrong.  Punters do not cheat.   The computer disburses only after withholding the taxes due.   In any case, you say that my talks about bookies are not relevant here.  Whether your accusations in respect of punters relevant.

"Resist the temptation to come with your usual insolent, aggressive and browbeating reply"!  No comments.  When you point one finger at me, three fingers are pointing towards you.

My strike rate is less than 15%.  O K. Mention what is your strike rate?

In tote u can't bet heavily, pls Bookies come back

@Raghavan-

As usual you are getting carried away with your rhetoric. It is necessary to GRASP the concept - whether in taxation, racing or anything else. I concede that it is not your strong point. The very premise on which the petitioner's argument is based cannot apply to betting with bookmakers. It is not surprising that your strike rate is languishing below 15% even after more than 30 years. Your frustration with racing is but natural.

Cheating by bookmakers was irrelevant here but you can't avoid your obsession with them. You take pride in claiming that no bookmaker has so far refuted your allegations. In fact you should consider yourself lucky that they don't care about what you write your day in and day out. If ever they felt that it was important enough, you will wish you had not uttered a word about it.

As I had said all punters including you are cheating by not paying income tax but you are the only one who keeps whining about the bookies. You are trying to save face by claiming you are innocent but that does not cut any ice. Your constant bickering out of frustration only amounts to a petty thief begrudging a big thief because neither the petty thief has got what it takes to become a big thief nor has he got what it takes to be a successful punter.

Now, take a deep breath and resist the temptation to come back with your usual insolent, aggressive and browbeating reply.

Spade,

I do not think GST council differentiates between parimutuel (tote) betting and betting with bookies.  Tax at 28% must be paid whether one bets with tote or bookies.  But, it is a different matter that bookies cheat the Government  by collecting tax at 10%, whereas tote bettors have no such luxury.

But, no doubt this is a landmark  judgement.  But, I believe in counting chickens only after hatching.  

@SPADE , 

You may be right.

The entire argument of BTC was based on thebpremise thatbthe BETTING AMOUNT DOES NOT BELONG TO THE RACE CLUB and is held in TRUST for the winning punter.For this service , the Club is  charging a COMMISSION only on which GST of 28% is applicable.This point has been upheld by the Hon COURT.(to simplify --tote is a zero sum game.Losing punters money goes to winning punter.On the other hand Bookie keeps it all after paying winning punter)

The Bookmakers case is entirely different .They are not charging any commission for their services nor they are holding the ENTIRE collection in TRUST for the winning punter.In my opinion they will have to pay 28% on betting amount and the judgement has nothing to do with them.( music to Mr.Raghavan's ears --sir ,your wish may have come true)

One more thing --The appeal of the Clubs and similar gambling industry for similar relief (as given in court judgement ) is already under consideration of the GST Council.The council may even consider the judgement as judicial guidance and revise the rules.The matter may not reach Supreme Court ,in such an eventuality.Let's see.

@IIMBLUE - 

This is indeed a landmark judgment no doubt as far as tote goes. It is also going to create a peculiar situation as far as betting with the bookies is concerned because the argument used by the petitioners holds true only for a paramutuel system. The bookies operate on a different principle. The bookies will have to continue to charge GST at 28 % or revised rate if any. 

IIM Blue,

"Matter may reach Supreme Court.  But, there is a strong case in favor of race clubs".    After nearly 4 years, a good news.  

But, will the club pass the benefits to punters?  Let us wait and see.

As on date bookies are expected to collect 28% GST plus 5% club commission.  If HC order is implemented, they have to collect tax at 28% of club commission.  Say 1.5%.  Order looks too good for punters.  Too premature to work out the benefits that will accrue to punters.

If the GST council appeals, then we should just pray that SC does not stay operation of HC order.

Srinivas c,

Prima facie, the order is in favour of punters. Hope that the BTC will pass on such benefits to punters.  If BTC enhances the club commission then absolutely no relief to punters.

If GST council appeals in Supreme Court and the court stays operation of HC order, then we are back at square one. 

Let us wait till races resume.

Quite good news.

But, one should not forget Mrs Seetharaman, the F M , who alongwith many leaders are totally against this SIN TAX.

Let's hope for the best.

Is this judgement favour for punters on betting please explain let us know  ,